User avatar
garygid
Gold Member
Posts: 12464
Joined: Wed Apr 21, 2010 8:10 am
Delivery Date: 29 Mar 2011
Leaf Number: 000855
Location: Laguna Hills, Orange Co, CA

Re: Prejudice and Range: A Michiganders dilema

Mon Mar 05, 2012 11:02 am

On good days, the commute is easy.

To handle days that really require more e-fuel, spend some time
finding places where you could plug in (or charging stations)
when you really need them.

These options, maybe with an hour or so of 240v charging, would
typically take some extra time, but insure that you get home!
See SOC/GID-Meter and CAN-Do Info
2010 Prius, now for sale
2011 LEAF, sold in 2015
2018 Tesla Model 3
2014 Tesla S, Model 3 in 2019
PU: SDG&E
Solar PV: 33 x 225W -> 7 kW max AC
To Sell: X-treme 5000Li EV motorcycle

User avatar
lpickup
Posts: 1170
Joined: Thu Nov 17, 2011 2:14 pm
Delivery Date: 09 Dec 2011
Leaf Number: 16138
Location: Raleigh, NC
Contact: Website

Re: Prejudice and Range: A Michiganders dilema

Mon Mar 05, 2012 11:43 am

KennyLewis wrote:There were only a few stops to allow for regen.

...

I probably should have stayed off the interstate to do more regen.
You actually want to AVOID regen if possible. Yes, when you HAVE to stop anyway (because of stop lights or traffic), regen is great because you get some of your kinetic energy back into the batteries. But you do not get quite as much back as you put into it, so you will ALWAYS do better if you just drive a consistent speed (and slower is better than faster in general, down to about 12 mph). So when people talk about staying off the interstates to extend their range, it's not because there is more stop and go, it's just because the average speeds tend to be less so the car will go more efficiently. So for example, you may do better driving a consistent 60 mph than you would driving at 45 mph with a lot of stops. I actually get some really decent mi/kWh readings while on the highway doing 65 vs. driving around town and having to accelerate at lights all the time. Plus, if you're using a lot of heat, making your trip doing 65 on the highway and having it take 15 minutes vs. surface streets and having it take 45 minutes, you've saved yourself 30 minutes worth of 1.5kWh heater usage (or 750W--~3 miles of range).
...Lance

Deep Blue Metallic 2018 Tesla Model 3 (31849) (delivered: 7/13/18)
Coulis Red 2016 SV (312310) (bought: 12/23/16 sold: 7/5/18)
Glacier Pearl 2012 SL (016138) (delivered: 12/9/11; traded in 12/23/16)
NOGA$4ME Blog

kubel
Posts: 1609
Joined: Mon Feb 13, 2012 11:38 am
Leaf Number: 19628
Location: Southeast Michigan

Re: Prejudice and Range: A Michiganders dilema

Mon Mar 05, 2012 2:47 pm

Lance, that was something I was curious about. Assuming I'm using the heater, what is the break even speed at which it's more efficient to drive faster (so as to minimize time spent using the heater)?

For instance, a large part of my 45mph city driving could be replaced with 70mph highway driving, dropping my commute time by about 15 minutes. But is driving 45mph for an additional 15 minutes with the heater blasting going to use more or less energy than driving 15 minutes less but at highway speed. My guess is the heater uses a lot of power, but not as much power as it takes for the car to overcome 70mph drag.

Part of the fun of owning a leaf must be testing out all these scenarios and exploring the character of the car in different situations. Something that normal people would consider to be a hassle I consider an exploration. I'm envious of you all. ;)
2012 Nissan LEAF SV
20% degradation in 42k miles
Leased 5-17-2012, Returned 1-15-2016


2017 Chevy Volt LT
Siren Red Tintcoat
Leased 10-21-2016

User avatar
planet4ever
Posts: 4674
Joined: Sat Apr 03, 2010 9:53 pm
Delivery Date: 02 May 2011
Leaf Number: 1537
Location: Morgan Hill, CA, south of San Jose

Re: Prejudice and Range: A Michiganders dilema

Mon Mar 05, 2012 2:49 pm

Volusiano wrote:As for the Leaf being butt ugly, that's just a personal preference, and while I don't find the Leaf looking attractive, it doesn't look ugly to me either. It just looks different, appropriate for being a special and different kind of car. Those headlights are designed that way (bulging out) not just for fun, but to maximize areodynamic.
I do find the looks of the car a bit ... odd ... but those bulging headlights, the strangely shaped back, and the bright blue color of mine make it super easy to find in a crowded parking lot. I now treat the appearance as a unique feature.

Ray
End of April 2013: Traded my 2011 SL for a 2013 S with charge pkg.

User avatar
lpickup
Posts: 1170
Joined: Thu Nov 17, 2011 2:14 pm
Delivery Date: 09 Dec 2011
Leaf Number: 16138
Location: Raleigh, NC
Contact: Website

Re: Prejudice and Range: A Michiganders dilema

Mon Mar 05, 2012 4:12 pm

kubel wrote:Lance, that was something I was curious about. Assuming I'm using the heater, what is the break even speed at which it's more efficient to drive faster (so as to minimize time spent using the heater)?
I think there are way too many variables at play! Outside temp, what inside temp is set to, whether you pre-heated or not.

Here are my findings limited to the specific scenario I have had experience with:
- outside temps in the mid-40's (sorry, that's pretty much as cold as it gets here, and if it's warmer I don't bother with heating the cabin anyway. Earlier this winter when the temps were in the 30's I wasn't looking this closely at things)
- cabin and heating system thermal mass are already warm (i.e. through pre-heating)
- inside temp set to 72F and on AUTO (unlike others I have come to really like the AUTO setting--I was skeptical, but it actually does properly direct hot air to the feet when warming, AND as a bonus it doesn't even run the fan at all (or at least at low speed) until there is actually hot air to blow)
- driving in ECO mode (you would probably eventually reach this steady state in D mode, but I never drive in D)

Results:
It generally takes about 1-1.5kW of power draw to maintain cabin heat

So from that you can calculate how much power you are going to consume per time period. For example if you have a half hour drive, or if the difference in drive time between your comparison points is 30 minutes, you'll consume between 0.5 and 0.75 kWh to heat.

It's easy enough to repeat the observations using whatever scenario you want once you have the car in hand. You just need to monitor the energy info screen to see what the power draw is.

It's even harder to quantify your energy use instantaneously at different speeds/driving styles. But the car does give you the tools to measure it. You would just need to reset the efficiency meter, drive one way and note the mi/kWh, and reset and repeat for the other way. Of course this takes into account your use of accessories including the heat, so to really do a valid experiment you'd have to run without heat.
...Lance

Deep Blue Metallic 2018 Tesla Model 3 (31849) (delivered: 7/13/18)
Coulis Red 2016 SV (312310) (bought: 12/23/16 sold: 7/5/18)
Glacier Pearl 2012 SL (016138) (delivered: 12/9/11; traded in 12/23/16)
NOGA$4ME Blog

User avatar
DaveEV
Forum Supporter
Posts: 6237
Joined: Fri Apr 23, 2010 3:51 pm
Location: San Diego

Re: Prejudice and Range: A Michiganders dilema

Mon Mar 05, 2012 4:52 pm

kubel wrote:For instance, a large part of my 45mph city driving could be replaced with 70mph highway driving, dropping my commute time by about 15 minutes. But is driving 45mph for an additional 15 minutes with the heater blasting going to use more or less energy than driving 15 minutes less but at highway speed. My guess is the heater uses a lot of power, but not as much power as it takes for the car to overcome 70mph drag.
Lots of variables here. But assuming a constant 45 / 70 mph and using the range chart to extrapolate power requirements, 45 mph = 5.2 mi / kWh and 70 mph = 3.3 mi / kWh. A bit of math reveals that 45 mph is about 200 Wh/mi and 70 mph = 300 Wh/mi. Going to assume that the distance is 30 miles in this case which takes 40 minutes at 45 mph and 26 minutes at 70 mph.

So energy alone at 45 mph = 6 kWh and 70 mph = 9 kWh. To burn 3 kWh in the 15 minutes you save the HVAC system would have to be drawing 9 kW - which is impossible since it normally maxes out around 5 kW or so. So, adding in HVAC at worst case 5 kW would give you a total of 9.3 kWh at 45 mph taking 40 minutes and 11.2 kWh at 70 mph taking 26 minutes.

So yes - in this case, 45 mph will save you around 2 kWh compared to driving at 70 mph at max heat - but likely much more since power draw will go down as the car warms up.

User avatar
aqn
Gold Member
Posts: 819
Joined: Fri Oct 01, 2010 12:59 pm
Delivery Date: 30 Apr 2011
Leaf Number: 1333
Location: Austin, TX

Re: Prejudice and Range: A Michiganders dilema

Mon Mar 05, 2012 7:12 pm

Unless I missed something, I don't think you mentioned why do you want a LEAF? If it's for environmental reasons, have you considered a Prius, which is only slightly dirtier well-to-wheel than the LEAF and appears to be more practical for you.
Anna Nguyen

SanDust
Posts: 1363
Joined: Fri Aug 06, 2010 10:54 am

Re: Prejudice and Range: A Michiganders dilema

Mon Mar 05, 2012 9:58 pm

kubel wrote:So it looks like it all boils down to whether or not I can convince management to allow me to plug in at work. 8 hours of 120V should give me close to 40 miles, correct?
Yes. Do you have plugs for block heaters? They should work.

DaveinOlyWA
Posts: 14157
Joined: Sat Apr 24, 2010 7:43 pm
Delivery Date: 16 Nov 2019
Leaf Number: 319862
Location: Olympia, WA
Contact: Website

Re: Prejudice and Range: A Michiganders dilema

Tue Mar 06, 2012 8:53 am

ok, have not responded since early in the thread, but you have another car??

sorry, i am now at a COMPLETE loss as to what your dilemma is.

your commute is EASILY done even in winter barring freak weather. i went to High School in MI and am very familiar with the weather and for those that dont know, its the wind that will be much more of a problem than cold.

with heated seats; many report (including one who had both a 2011 without seat heaters and a 2012 with them) that the need for cabin heat is almost non- existent. so most of the time, only a little heat is needed.

FYI; from my Junior year until just before i graduated, i drove a VW Bug with NO HEAT at all every day...and ya, it sucked but better than walking!!
2011 SL; 44,598 miles. 2013 S; 44,840 miles.2016 S30 deceased. 29,413 miles. 2018 S40; 25,185 miles SOH 92.23%
My Blog; http://daveinolywa.blogspot.com" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

bigtlb
Posts: 115
Joined: Tue Aug 03, 2010 7:56 am
Delivery Date: 14 Oct 2011
Location: Chicago, IL

Re: Prejudice and Range: A Michiganders dilema

Tue Mar 06, 2012 9:31 am

I live in Illinois with a 59 mile commute (round trip, combination city & highway). I have a scheduled charge to 100% Sunday - Thursday evenings.

My employer has installed an L2. I mainly use it to preheat when it is really cold, or when I run errands during the day.

Most days I don't use it at all, and routinely get home with 15 or more miles left on the GOM.

The thing that gave me confidence so that I don't charge up at work, is that I have several planned charging locations on my way home (mainly Whole Foods & Walgreens). I know that if a am missing my target by a few miles, I can always stop in for a few minutes of charge and make it. (roughly 12 miles per hour, or 3 miles in 15 minutes).

Yesterday I had gone to the gym and run errands before going to work, that accounted for about 12 miles. It was 26f at the lake front and 32f by the time I got to Lake Forest. I knew it would be close, but still didn't charge at work. I got within a few blocks of my house with 4 miles remaining. I stopped of at the store to pick something up. When I got back into the care it showed --- instead of 4. But I got home fine with no turtle.

When it comes to heat I usually either pre heat (if plugged in), or pulse the heater. Not leaving it on continually. If my trip was only 53 miles round, I might have the confidence to leave it on.
2012 Nissan Leaf SL
Delivered: 12/28/11
EVSE: 10/24/2011 (AeroVironment)

Return to “Range / Efficiency / Carwings”