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TickTock
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Re: Report Your Gid Number at 100% Charge

Thu Apr 05, 2012 8:04 am

Unless you plan to violate the second law of thermodynamics, wh/gid must be higher going in than coming out. I get 80 going in and ~75 coming out (more noise in the measurement during discharge). Does this not explain the discrepancy?

DaveinOlyWA
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Re: Report Your Gid Number at 100% Charge

Thu Apr 05, 2012 8:20 am

TickTock wrote:Unless you plan to violate the second law of thermodynamics, wh/gid must be higher going in than coming out. I get 80 going in and ~75 coming out (more noise in the measurement during discharge). Does this not explain the discrepancy?
ok so its "usable" charge. ok that makes sense since some is lost to heat both going in and out. so we *might* have 85 watts per GID coming in, 75 watts per GID going out. the rest NOT USED to warm our butts?
2011 SL; 44,598 mi, 87% SOH. 2013 S; 44,840 mi, 91% SOH. 2016 S30; 29,413 mi, 99% SOH. 2018 S; 25,185 mi, SOH 92.23%. 2019 S Plus; 11,333.1 mi, 93.73% SOH
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gascant
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Re: Report Your Gid Number at 100% Charge

Thu Apr 05, 2012 9:10 am

Boomer23 wrote:For March:
Overnight temps typically around 50 deg F. All charging done beginning 12:10 am.

Almost all charging done to 100%. Full charges done so far in March = 16

LEAF delivered March 30, 2011

Miles at end of day March 25, 2012 = 11,105

Gids at 100% charge....starting Gids before charging
280....135 March 6
281....109 March 8
281....140 March 10
269....28 March 11
280....101 March 14
281....196 March 15
281....54 March 16
279....127 March 17
275....126 March 19
281....147 March 22
278....158 March 23
281....144 March 24
281....132 March 25
My experience is almost identical to Boomer's except that I have 15,500 miles in 10.7 months. So, I've gotten to 281 a little less frequently, but I still get there. This is after close to 300 charge cycles to 100% and driving 62 miles 5-6 days/week. But, starting last Friday, I've had a change in lifestyle. In fact, I haven't charged at all since Saturday morning (12:10 - 4:35 AM).
2011 LEAF SL brilliant silver + QC
DRL's, Seat Heaters, Horn, LEDs and EVSE upgrades
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Ingineer
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Re: Report Your Gid Number at 100% Charge

Thu Apr 05, 2012 9:35 am

TonyWilliams wrote:How do we account for, and resolve the discrepancies between the 80 published number and the 75 observed by the operator (me, and anybody with a Gidmeter) ?
I'm not seeing this. It is highly suspect of you to lump "everyone" in with you, when they have not confirmed this is the case. According to my measurements, and I have MUCH better instrumentation than you do, I see 80wh/Gid. I have confirmed this directly myself other cars as well, not just my own.

What are you basing this on? What the Miles/Kwh figure on the dash says? They do a lot of rounding, and it's very approximate, along with errors.

With a high accuracy, calibrated, galvanic current shunt installed in series with the battery, and connected using the kelvin method (4 wires), I have observed a reasonable accuracy for the overall power stored, with the exception of readings during correction periods. During these periods the car's power measurements appear skewed high until the correction event completes, and low afterwards. I suspect this is an attempt by Nissan to make the "average" more accurate. This affects all the car's visible instrumentation in different ways. The Leaf also exhibits a lot of error at low power levels as the current measuring system is hall-effect and subject to a number of effects that result in drift.

-Phil
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Ingineer
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Re: Report Your Gid Number at 100% Charge

Thu Apr 05, 2012 9:50 am

By the way, the correction event after a charge is often why we see the GoM (and other car displays) show a more excessive consumption of energy initially.

-Phil
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TonyWilliams
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Re: Report Your Gid Number at 100% Charge

Thu Apr 05, 2012 2:19 pm

Ingineer wrote:
TonyWilliams wrote:How do we account for, and resolve the discrepancies between the 80 published number and the 75 observed by the operator (me, and anybody with a Gidmeter) ?
I'm not seeing this. It is highly suspect of you to lump "everyone" in with you, when they have not confirmed this is the case. According to my measurements, and I have MUCH better instrumentation than you do, I see 80wh/Gid. I have confirmed this directly myself other cars as well, not just my own.

What are you basing this on? What the Miles/Kwh figure on the dash says? They do a lot of rounding....l

EXACTLY!!!! No, I not "clumping" anybody, since I'm not the only one with the 75 observation. Just read back through the posts. I clipped off your comments about how it can be done, because those are not the tools available to us in the pre LEAFSCAN world.

So, what I proposed in an earlier post (maybe on another thread) was that we cease the debate, and just present the data as advertised: Nissan says 80 watt/hours, so let's just call it watt/hours.

Then, what we observe during the propulsion of the car, using the same number who's value is based off the dash instruments; let's call those Gids. Yes, tons of rounding, lack of mega top secret accuracy, but those are the tools given us, and the results factored from those tools, and the math that works for the observed performance, and specifically not from lab work.

Does that work ?

gascant
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Re: Report Your Gid Number at 100% Charge

Thu Apr 05, 2012 2:32 pm

So who's getting the demo LEAFScan for this month's owners club meeting??
2011 LEAF SL brilliant silver + QC
DRL's, Seat Heaters, Horn, LEDs and EVSE upgrades
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surfingslovak
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Re: Report Your Gid Number at 100% Charge

Thu Apr 05, 2012 2:42 pm

TonyWilliams wrote:Then, what we observe during the propulsion of the car, using the same number who's value is based off the dash instruments; let's call those Gids. Yes, tons of rounding, lack of mega top secret accuracy, but those are the tools given us, and the results factored from those tools, and the math that works for the observed performance, and specifically not from lab work.
Yes, and please don't forget losses, such as heat developed when storing and retrieving energy from the battery, and the energy lost during cell balancing. I believe that both are unaccounted for, and they will be missing from the equation if you assume 80 Wh will be going in and out of the battery. Sure, you can ignore them, and adjust for that error later, but this energy is lost, and you will ultimately see the effect one way or another. Even without instrumentation. Yes, it's old school and much tougher, but if there a sizable error, it can and will be detected by a careful observer.

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Ingineer
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Re: Report Your Gid Number at 100% Charge

Thu Apr 05, 2012 3:17 pm

surfingslovak wrote:Yes, and please don't forget losses, such as heat developed when storing and retrieving energy from the battery, and the energy lost during cell balancing. I believe that both are unaccounted for, and they will be missing from the equation if you assume 80 Wh will be going in and out of the battery. Sure, you can ignore them, and adjust for that error later, but this energy is lost, and you will ultimately see the effect one way or another. Even without instrumentation. Yes, it's old school and much tougher, but if there a sizable error, it can and will be detected by a careful observer.
The watt-hours are "usable output", so they are corrected. (constantly in fact, as battery parameters are always in flux)

-Phil
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Ingineer
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Re: Report Your Gid Number at 100% Charge

Thu Apr 05, 2012 3:17 pm

gascant wrote:So who's getting the demo LEAFScan for this month's owners club meeting??
Me! :D
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