mux
Posts: 230
Joined: Sat Jan 13, 2018 3:52 am
Delivery Date: 13 Oct 2011
Leaf Number: 6177

Re: Battery Upgrades are very possible

Fri Nov 08, 2019 4:45 am

By fall 2020 we'll have kits available that just work.

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Marktm
Gold Member
Posts: 518
Joined: Thu Jan 21, 2016 10:49 am
Delivery Date: 09 Jan 2016
Leaf Number: 022737
Location: Houston, TX

Re: Battery Upgrades are very possible

Fri Nov 08, 2019 6:33 am

Could this approach deter the Fenix Power initiative? I'm quite sure at this point that I've lost my early subscription down payment :o (not really surprised!).

Still hope?
https://www.fundable.com/fenix-power
2012 Leaf SL; 43,000 miles. Battery replaced November 1st, 2016.

Oilpan4
Gold Member
Posts: 876
Joined: Wed Jan 09, 2019 10:51 pm
Delivery Date: 10 May 2018
Leaf Number: 004270

Re: Battery Upgrades are very possible

Fri Nov 08, 2019 9:10 am

I have always thought the Fenix solution was way too pipe dreamy.
Now if a company who already manufactures liquid cooled battery packs came out and said "we are going to make a really cool leaf battery upgrade" then yeah I could see it happening then.

I have always believed that the key to making a better leaf battery starts with the original battery design.
2011 white SL leaf with 2014 batt.
Chargers: Panasonic brick moded for 240v, duosida 16a 240v and a 10kw setec portable CHAdeMO
Location: 88103

DaveinOlyWA
Posts: 14151
Joined: Sat Apr 24, 2010 7:43 pm
Delivery Date: 16 Feb 2018
Leaf Number: 314199
Location: Olympia, WA
Contact: Website

Re: Battery Upgrades are very possible

Fri Nov 08, 2019 9:16 am

Daklein wrote:
Wed Nov 06, 2019 9:25 pm
AdventureMuffin wrote:
Wed Nov 06, 2019 7:37 pm
Suggestions on where to purchase battery.
I just got back from a little trip yesterday and today, and I brought home a 62 kWh pack!! I found a salvage yard on car-part.com showing they had an 18 and 19 pack, but wasn't clear what they were. They sent me pictures of the labels once they had them at their yard. One was a 40 and the other a 62. :D I said I wanted the blue dot one, paid them and left to go get it.

This is the place, www.advanceautosalvage.com/index.html and I talked with Dennis, he'll probably be the guy answering the phone. Nice guys, typical junkyard. They currently have two more 62s and a 40, I guess another two came after. More may or may not come in. Once or twice a year they might get this sort of thing. Probably other local yards may get parts too. He said he would keep the inventory list on the website (their website or car-part.com) up to date, if it's listed there, they probably still have it.

These are salvage, and have been handled like salvage parts, not new in box, but could be fine. They are from disassembled development or test cars from nearby in Smyna, TN. They could have had a boring life as 'emissions' fuel economy testing cars testing driving range running on a dyno, or they could have had anything done to them. As opposed to a typical salvage auction crash car where you know it was crashed or flooded or whatever.

Pictures here, including Leafspy screenshots: https://photos.app.goo.gl/cdNQUvgKKQvGX3wG8

serial #000015 62 has a broken HV connector, should be no big deal to replace if you have another connector assembly, have to open it up to replace it. But no dents on the cover. Leaf spy looks good? It had chalky white overspray or paint on the top of it. Maybe just dust or dirt, but maybe overspray from marking structural parts underneath a car for crash testing? Maybe the HV connector broke from the main cable being pushed rearward in a crash test? Or easily just broken during disassembly.

#000010 62 has some bigger dents on the top, must have touched the cells, should open it to check it. Looked like it might been tipped over on the ground? Leaf spy looks funny? Every other cell is hi lo hi lo, only 10-15mv, but why? Maybe some special testing. I can't think why it would look that way.

Any of these probably should be opened to make sure the dents are just superficial. Mine (serial # 000006 ) has some probably superficial dents on the top cover, I may open it to check, I'm not sure. And Leafspy looks similar to #015

The 62 packs report approximately 171 ahrs!! 97soh!! My pretty good 24 pack has only 62 ahrs!

The 40 looks like it had some other testing done on it. It has a hole from a pressure relief valve that got knocked off on the left side top cover. The other side still has a relief valve. It has some good dents on it too. The controls connector looks like the earlier 11-12 connector, but has the PTC heater plug like 13+. I didn't know the pinout for the 11-12 connector, so I didn't plug in to it, sorry. I'm not sure what sort of testing would need to have pressure relief on the case. I'd keep that in mind.
AdventureMuffin wrote:
Wed Nov 06, 2019 7:37 pm
Is that true too for the 2013 Leaf? Plenty of room left for an installation of a 62 KWH battery?
The 62 packs are a bit taller, and there could be some mechanical work to fit it. The rear side mounts are higher, vs. the 24/30/40 pack side mount tabs are all the same height I think. The Plus pack looks like it goes lower in the car, I see the front two mounts look different also. The front tabs are up a little higher like the rear side ones. I think my 24 front mount tabs are more flush with the bottom of the pack. It looks like the ground clearance is lower on the plus model, comparing pictures of 2018, vs. 2019 plus. The plus model you can see battery pack covers hanging below the rocker panel. It may require spacers and longer bolts on the first & second side mounts, to get all the mounts on the same plane.

I'll measure it up and figure out more when I unload the new one soon, and look again under my car and measure there. I hope it will fit as is, like the 40's fit in mux's gen 1 projects. It should fit, unless the Plus model underfloor structure is different? If not, I'll be making it fit somehow, modify either the car or the pack.
$$
2011 SL; 44,598 miles. 2013 S; 44,840 miles.2016 S30 deceased. 29,413 miles. 2018 S40; 15,000 miles, 478 GIDs, 37.0 kwh 109.81 Ahr , SOH 94.61, Hx 120.15
My Blog; http://daveinolywa.blogspot.com" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

DaveinOlyWA
Posts: 14151
Joined: Sat Apr 24, 2010 7:43 pm
Delivery Date: 16 Feb 2018
Leaf Number: 314199
Location: Olympia, WA
Contact: Website

Re: Battery Upgrades are very possible

Fri Nov 08, 2019 9:34 am

Marktm wrote:
Fri Nov 08, 2019 6:33 am
Could this approach deter the Fenix Power initiative? I'm quite sure at this point that I've lost my early subscription down payment :o (not really surprised!).

Still hope?
https://www.fundable.com/fenix-power
No. "most" people won't buy something that has no warranty
2011 SL; 44,598 miles. 2013 S; 44,840 miles.2016 S30 deceased. 29,413 miles. 2018 S40; 15,000 miles, 478 GIDs, 37.0 kwh 109.81 Ahr , SOH 94.61, Hx 120.15
My Blog; http://daveinolywa.blogspot.com" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Oilpan4
Gold Member
Posts: 876
Joined: Wed Jan 09, 2019 10:51 pm
Delivery Date: 10 May 2018
Leaf Number: 004270

Re: Battery Upgrades are very possible

Fri Nov 08, 2019 12:57 pm

Typical junk yard beating the hell out of everything they remove.
I think I will stick with buying a whole wrecked car.
2011 white SL leaf with 2014 batt.
Chargers: Panasonic brick moded for 240v, duosida 16a 240v and a 10kw setec portable CHAdeMO
Location: 88103

OakLeaf
Posts: 118
Joined: Tue Dec 11, 2012 1:00 pm
Delivery Date: 21 Nov 2012
Location: Telford, PA

Re: Battery Upgrades are very possible

Fri Nov 08, 2019 7:57 pm

mux wrote:
Fri Nov 08, 2019 4:45 am
By fall 2020 we'll have kits available that just work.
Would these kits be for all model year Leafs?

Would these kits include the batteries that go in the hatch, new cells for refurbishing the main pack, or some other combination?

We have a 2012 SL that's down to 7 bars now and knowing what would be needed for the kit ahead of time would allow the next year to prepare.

You're doing great work and it's always good to see what you're up to in the video updates.

Congrats on your recent wedding as well!
2012 Leaf SL - 72K miles since 11/2012 - No P3227 Update - 7 Bars / 38.80AHr / SOH 59.15% / Hx 51.26%

mux
Posts: 230
Joined: Sat Jan 13, 2018 3:52 am
Delivery Date: 13 Oct 2011
Leaf Number: 6177

Re: Battery Upgrades are very possible

Sat Nov 09, 2019 1:07 am

The kits I'm talking about in this particular instance just pertain to straignt battery upgrades - and yes, they will work for any car. Any model year can receive any battery, even - if for some wicked reason you want to - a downgrade.

Extender packs are a bit of a different beast, also because they require some bulky extraneous equipment to do them right. We have fitting templates and hoisting adapters that we can't really make in bulk and ship - not to mention the batteries themselves. All of that is, for now, a bit of an unknown.

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Marktm
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Posts: 518
Joined: Thu Jan 21, 2016 10:49 am
Delivery Date: 09 Jan 2016
Leaf Number: 022737
Location: Houston, TX

Re: Battery Upgrades are very possible

Sat Nov 09, 2019 6:41 am

mux - to be more specific - can any Leaf model use any other Leaf model's battery with some minor physical modes? Will the Leaf's instrumentation and vehicle control systems then operate very similar to before the change out (GOM, LeafSpy readouts, regen controls systems, etc, etc.)? Or if not, what "systems" might be different?

Just trying to understand better as I feel very confident in the physical part of a change out, but not being a vehicle control/CAN expert (or even novice for that matter), that part worries me - if for some reason the Leaf becomes "bricked" or display is incorrect, or the eco mode does not work - as some examples.

I would be particularly interested if, after a change out - let's say to a 40 of 60 kWh battery pack in my 2012 Leaf (excellent vehicle!), the bidirectional CHAdeMO protocols would then be available, which are not currently available to me to use V2H (or V2X for that matter) in my 2012.

If all this is true, please hurry :mrgreen:
2012 Leaf SL; 43,000 miles. Battery replaced November 1st, 2016.

Lothsahn
Posts: 508
Joined: Thu Apr 05, 2018 4:35 pm
Delivery Date: 04 Jan 2018
Leaf Number: 007797

Re: Battery Upgrades are very possible

Sat Nov 09, 2019 9:14 am

Marktm wrote:
Sat Nov 09, 2019 6:41 am
mux - to be more specific - can any Leaf model use any other Leaf model's battery with some minor physical modes? Will the Leaf's instrumentation and vehicle control systems then operate very similar to before the change out (GOM, LeafSpy readouts, regen controls systems, etc, etc.)? Or if not, what "systems" might be different?

Just trying to understand better as I feel very confident in the physical part of a change out, but not being a vehicle control/CAN expert (or even novice for that matter), that part worries me - if for some reason the Leaf becomes "bricked" or display is incorrect, or the eco mode does not work - as some examples.

I would be particularly interested if, after a change out - let's say to a 40 of 60 kWh battery pack in my 2012 Leaf (excellent vehicle!), the bidirectional CHAdeMO protocols would then be available, which are not currently available to me to use V2H (or V2X for that matter) in my 2012.

If all this is true, please hurry :mrgreen:
Mux will have to confirm or refute this statement. His information is better than mine, and if any conflicts, defer to him.

As I understand it, the current can adapters that are being built translate the messages from the BMS into messages that can be understood by earlier revisions of the VCM. That is, a Man-in-the-middle device is inserted on the CAN bus that translates the 40 kWh messages into messages that can be understood by your 2012 VCM. It will, however, properly translate both the range and health metrics, so your 2012 car will show the proper number of miles remaining. It's been shown that both the display and the VCM in the 2012 are capable of showing ranges in excess of 200-300 miles if the appropriate CAN messages are sent.

Some things are likely also hackable in, such as the things that the https://evtun.com/leafbox.html can do. The LeafBox enables B mode in earlier cars by remapping power curves with CAN bus intercepts. You can imagine this like basically faking the throttle and brake inputs to get the desired car behavior.

This will likely NOT enable bidirectional CHAdeMO. I expect that would involve significant updates to VCM and other firmware. It may even require hardware changes to the car.

I didn't fully understand your questions about bricking, but yes, it's important that the messages arrive correctly. If the VCM detects improperly formatted or even messages arriving at the wrong time (delayed by milliseconds), it could detect a fault with one or more of the various systems, triggering diagnostic codes, turtle mode, or even outright shutdown of the car. It is extremely important that these interception systems be reliable and robust otherwise car behavior may be incorrect. For instance, with the wrong CAN messages, your car could suddenly lose all power or suddenly go to full throttle. The vehicle control CAN busses are critical systems.

I believe the steering wheel is mechanically linked to the road. Nearly everything else is controlled by CAN messages, at least at some point in the process.
2011 Silver SV, purchased 2018, lives in Missouri (previously in CA)
LeafSpy Pro + BAFX Products OBDII dongle
Battery swap 2019/04/24 (87% SOH, 12 bar)

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