Why not just display estimated number of kWh left?

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jlsoaz

Well-known member
Joined
Jul 8, 2012
Messages
849
Location
Southern Arizona, USA
Maybe this has been answered, but at a quick search I do not see it. I don't dislike the 12 bars display, nor the estimated miles of range left, but why not add a way to view estimated useable kWh remaining?

(Come to think of it, I don't know that I've owned an ICV that just gave gallons, but my cars have generally been pretty basic. In any event, maybe it would be useful to see the estimated kWh.)
 
Yes, that would be nice.

It sounds like the 2013 will show percentage battery remaining, which is an improvement over the GOM. But I'd rather see kWh too.
 
Apparently Nissan did not want to reveal the "naked" truth,
and decided to hide the actual capacity-loss issue as much
as possible.

Also, a really reliable fuel-quantity value appears to be
rather difficult to estimate, and possibly misleading at times.

Thus, we have the GID-Meter, to give us a better (not perfect)
display of a practical, usable fuel-quantity value that the LEAF
"hides" inside itself. But, it can, occasionally, be misleading.

However, most GID-Meter users find it very helpful, and
some say that they hate to drive without their GID-Meter.

See the LEAF CANbus subforum, or my
http://www.wwwsite.com/puzzles/socmeter/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
site for more info.
 
True. My wife usually takes every opportunity to drive the Leaf but when I had the gid-o-meter out for a sw update she refused to drive it until it was back in place. The Leaf's built-in GOM stresses her out. I agree kW makes the most sense - especially since they provide the driving efficiency in mpkWh but it's clear Nissan didn't want to disclose the actual usable capacity.

garygid said:
Apparently Nissan did not want to reveal the "naked" truth,
and decided to hide the actual capacity-loss issue as much
as possible.

Also, a really reliable fuel-quantity value appears to be
rather difficult to estimate, and possibly misleading at times.

Thus, we have the GID-Meter, to give us a better (not perfect)
display of a practical, usable fuel-quantity value that the LEAF
"hides" inside itself. But, it can, occasionally, be misleading.

However, most GID-Meter users find it very helpful, and
some say that they hate to drive without their GID-Meter.

See the LEAF CANbus subforum, or my
http://www.wwwsite.com/puzzles/socmeter/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
site for more info.
 
Percent of charge remaining will be nice, but I doubt that remaining kWhs would me meaningful to most folks. For techies? OK.

Bill
 
garygid said:
Apparently Nissan did not want to reveal the "naked" truth,
and decided to hide the actual capacity-loss issue as much
as possible.

Also, a really reliable fuel-quantity value appears to be
rather difficult to estimate, and possibly misleading at times.

Thus, we have the GID-Meter, to give us a better (not perfect)
display of a practical, usable fuel-quantity value that the LEAF
"hides" inside itself. But, it can, occasionally, be misleading.

However, most GID-Meter users find it very helpful, and
some say that they hate to drive without their GID-Meter.

See the LEAF CANbus subforum, or my
http://www.wwwsite.com/puzzles/socmeter/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
site for more info.

Hi Gary,

thanks much for the response and for creating the GID meter. The link you provide does not say (or maybe I am jusat missing it) if the GID meter displays estimated kWh information. I've read something somewhere about GIDs as a unit of energy, and then I think somewhere there was an equivalency equation to kWh, but do users find they sometimes like to see kWh?

I have considered ordering a meter, but am very non-technical, and moving slowly on my own learning curve, so held off on the decision.

It may be that Nissan's decision not to display estimate kWh is related to concerns about providing transparent (or misleading) information that could be negative for them as regards battery degradation discussions, but I don't know.
 
jlsoaz said:
... does not say (or maybe I am just missing it) if the GID meter displays estimated kWh information. I've read something somewhere about GIDs as a unit of energy, and then I think somewhere there was an equivalency equation to kWh, but do users find they sometimes like to see kWh?

The LEAF battery is 24kWh, and for whatever reason, Nissan decided to divide that by 0.080kWh to arrive at 300 "Gids" for a 24kWh battery.

The actual stored energy is limited to 22.48kWh, or 281 Gids. When we finally retrieve the energy, there is about 21.3kWh available in a new 70F or warmer battery. That makes the each "Gid" worth 0.0758kWh (21.3 / 281 = 0.0758).

Of that 21.3kWh "available", there is about 2% at the bottom of the battery pack (.02 * 24 = 0.48kWh) that is not usable (just as there is some at the top not used between 22.48 and 24). Therefore, the final tally of usable energy for that new battery is 21.3 - 0.48 = 20.8kWh to propel the car and run all the systems.

We just use 21kWh for easy round figuring. Therefore, at 65mph on a level dry road with no wind, your car will achieve approximately 4 miles per kWh, or 84 miles of range. The Gid count should be about 6 when the car is dead (2% of 281), therefore 281 - 6 = 275 Gids to go 84 miles, or 3.27 Gids per mile.

3.27 Gids * 0.0758kWh = 0.248kWh used per mile at 65mph. Hope this helps with understanding the terms and parameters.

Again, all data is for a new, 70F or warmer battery. Things change drastically with cold and with degradation.
 
jlsoaz said:
Maybe this has been answered, but at a quick search I do not see it. I don't dislike the 12 bars display, nor the estimated miles of range left, but why not add a way to view estimated useable kWh remaining?

(Come to think of it, I don't know that I've owned an ICV that just gave gallons, but my cars have generally been pretty basic. In any event, maybe it would be useful to see the estimated kWh.)

Having now started to find and toggle and use the display which gives me estimated average miles per kWh, and thus re-affirmed the value to me of thinking in terms of miles per kWh, I think that reduces the likelihood of an explanation being the some users won't get it.... it doesn't really matter... some users will really like it.
 
As to displaying the number of kWh left, I'm all for it. It's similar to displaying the number of gallons left in an ICE instead of displaying the "range" (like what many ICE cars have). BTW, in my experience the "range" display in my 2011 Honda Insight isn't all that accurate either.

I've learned certain driving behaviors that will increase my miles/kWh. If the display included the number of kWh left, it may be a better reminder to adjust my driving behavior as needed, when needed.

Nissan just had a tech look over my LEAF for possible battery capacity loss issues. They provided their "report" to me. I thought the report would include a statement of battery capacity (like, 21 kWh at 100% capacity). But no, their report doesn't even indicate that they checked this. I suspect that Nissan doesn't want LEAF owners to know (or, to easily determine) their car battery's capacity.

But when the LEAF becomes more prevalent at used car outlets, wise LEAF shoppers will need to have a way to verify battery condition, including capacity. It appears that even brand new LEAF's have a wide variance in battery capacity. Right now, it looks like the GID meter is the only tool we have to take this measurement.

I'd like to have see a sticker on each new BEV that states the total battery kWh when the car left the factory.
 
Randy3 said:
...
I've learned certain driving behaviors that will increase my miles/kWh. If the display included the number of kWh left, it may be a better reminder to adjust my driving behavior as needed, when needed.

Yes, this is first thought I had on this... where I am coming from initially. Not at all trying to "get" Nissan or cause trouble for them, but rather trying to make a suggestion on vehicle improvement... just trying to figure out how much energy I have left and keep an eye on it... a cousin of the gauge that I can display as to miles/kWh at any given moment.

Does anyone know if Teslas or Volts or iMiEVs or CODAs display the estimated kWh remaining to drive on?

Randy3 said:
[...]
It appears that even brand new LEAF's have a wide variance in battery capacity. Right now, it looks like the GID meter is the only tool we have to take this measurement.
...

I didn't realize this variance could apply to new Leafs. I guess unfortunately I can see how this might make Nissan hesitate to display it. Still, ... I don't know that my/our suggestions are good ones in this area, but I request that they be given consideration.

Another business-minded way for Nissan to look at this is that if entire cottage industries inevitably spring up around certain early-adopter questions/suggestions on new products (EVSE upgrade to the charge cords, GID meters to gauge energy use, etc.) then this springing-up can be used by the manufacturer as a way to keep a short-list of potential improvement areas.
 
jlsoaz said:
Another business-minded way for Nissan to look at this is that if entire cottage industries inevitably spring up around certain early-adopter questions/suggestions on new products (EVSE upgrade to the charge cords, GID meters to gauge energy use, etc.) then this springing-up can be used by the manufacturer as a way to keep a short-list of potential improvement areas.
To a certain extent Nissan is already doing this. See the new State Of Charge display in the 2013.
http://insideevs.com/nissan-officially-announces-2013-leaf-in-japan-more-range-less-money-new-functionality/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
I have a GID meter in my 2012 and I find the SOC display to be the most useful of all the features. You may want to purchase one for your own car.
 
The problem is that the meter in the 2013s appears to show the SOC as a percent of the relative battery capacity. Thus, at different temperatures and as the battery ages, the absolute amount that each percent and the meter total represents will be a constantly moving target due to changing battery capacity... An absolute number is far more helpful but this relative SOC is certainly better than what people without a Gid meter currently have...

KJD said:
http://insideevs.com/nissan-officially-announces-2013-leaf-in-japan-more-range-less-money-new-functionality/
I have a GID meter in my 2012 and I find the SOC display to be the most useful of all the features. You may want to purchase one for your own car.
 
The description is probably incorrectly translated:
"Remaining battery capacity shown by percentage in the Multifunction Display".

So, it is unlikely that it is displaying the battery capacity.
At this point, we do not know what value is being displayed.

I suspect that it is unlikely to be percent GIDs.
However, it is also unlikely to stop at 95% when the battery is full.
 
Volt shows how many kWh used number, but personally just looking at the bars has been always enough information for me. Perhaps percentage would be better like a on a cellphone.
 
KJD said:
jlsoaz said:
Another business-minded way for Nissan to look at this is that if entire cottage industries inevitably spring up around certain early-adopter questions/suggestions on new products (EVSE upgrade to the charge cords, GID meters to gauge energy use, etc.) then this springing-up can be used by the manufacturer as a way to keep a short-list of potential improvement areas.
To a certain extent Nissan is already doing this. See the new State Of Charge display in the 2013.
http://insideevs.com/nissan-officially-announces-2013-leaf-in-japan-more-range-less-money-new-functionality/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
I have a GID meter in my 2012 and I find the SOC display to be the most useful of all the features.
You may want to purchase one for your own car.

The 2013 SoC % is going to show the actual % for the fuel bars, which are now not showing the actual %, but a vague % on CW.
 
Personally, I like the the Tesla method of showing "ideal" miles remaining as long as you know how many mi/kWh is needed to get those ideal miles. Also having kWh remaining would be useful.

At this point - I'd take anything over the GOM and 12 SOC bars which vary significantly in available capacity (never mind the hidden ones).
 
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