TimLee
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Re: Nissan Tests 48-kWh LEAF

Thu Mar 05, 2015 9:53 am

XeonPony wrote:...

Standard 40 amp 240 is fine in the home, time is not an issue here, it is the on road L2, here in Canada most every one is 70 to 90 amps.

...
Adding to the fact I stated that the smallest L2 in Canada universally are no less then 70AMp (Average being 80 to 90A) (I'd wager it is true in the states as well) the 12Kw capable charger is perfectly logical in preceding a larger battery.
You appear to be confusing DCQC CHAdeMO with L2.

You are correct that higher kWh battery vehicles will need faster charging.
The Tesla S has that, both option of second on board charger and very fast supercharging.

But if Nissan builds a 48 kWh vehicle, unlikely the on board charger will be upgraded past 10 kW.
Most homes will not support more than that.

For higher than that they will depend on DCQC CHAdeMO which currently goes to 50 kW, about 120 amps.
And a higher capability DCQC CHAdeMO is proposed.

Tim Lee
Chattanooga, TN

Man. Date: 03/10/11, VIN # 2026
Delivered 05-17-2011
Blue Ocean, 2011 SL-eTec

XeonPony
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Location: Yorkton, sask, Canada

Re: Nissan Tests 48-kWh LEAF

Thu Mar 05, 2015 10:40 am

TimLee wrote:
XeonPony wrote:...

Standard 40 amp 240 is fine in the home, time is not an issue here, it is the on road L2, here in Canada most every one is 70 to 90 amps.

...
Adding to the fact I stated that the smallest L2 in Canada universally are no less then 70AMp (Average being 80 to 90A) (I'd wager it is true in the states as well) the 12Kw capable charger is perfectly logical in preceding a larger battery.
You appear to be confusing DCQC CHAdeMO with L2.

You are correct that higher kWh battery vehicles will need faster charging.
The Tesla S has that, both option of second on board charger and very fast supercharging.

But if Nissan builds a 48 kWh vehicle, unlikely the on board charger will be upgraded past 10 kW.
Most homes will not support more than that.

For higher than that they will depend on DCQC CHAdeMO which currently goes to 50 kW, about 120 amps.
And a higher capability DCQC CHAdeMO is proposed.
No I am not confusing any thing, you how ever seem to be. for the sake of goats I gave you voltages e

again HOMES DO NOT NEED TO, I spelled this out as well!!!!!! The point is on-the-road usability, this is where speed is king, right now for a long drive I need to plug into an L2 mid way for well over 3h, longer is best to fully recharge with a 12kw charger would be a meer 1.5 or less if not going as far. This for the average person doing a quick top off will be even more useful, now for a coffe n snack they have significantly more usable range. Basically no matter what it is all win for us and Nissan.

Homes, standard 40amp 240 volt evse (Charger can be ten gigawatts but it will draw what the evse says it can!)

L2 in Canada is all ready min 70 amps 90Amp average at 240V (On-the-road values)

(V*A=WATTS 240V*90A=21.6KW) Hmmm seems to me just a tad over the needed capacity there! So with a 12Kw charger we'd have 9.6Kw of head room on an average L2 in Canada! (They built them for the teslas higher charge rate abilities and some future proofing!) the U.S. I'd assume they'd manage the same 90Amp standard!

Fast chargers would be glorious! had we any actually installed in the rest of Canada (They are either in Vancouver or Quebec, not much any where ells of use for the bulk of ev drivers out here)

So again the cheapest solution for Nissan to add a huge factor of convenience and usability would be to put in place a 12Kw charger, or hell even a 10! as every L2 charger in Canada all ready exceeds the needs by 9.6KW!! on average!

As you all ready agree with bigger battery we need a bigger charger we are on same page there.

You are errantly connecting battery charger with Ampacity, I think you are geting hung up here, the evse tells it what it can draw, so the home can be 1amp evse if you wanted or a 200Amp (48Kw) mind you nothing ells in the house can be on!! (Average new home in Canada is 200Amp 240V service)

So there is all ready this flexibility in the system, so Nissan will be wise to take advantage of it, and we will gain tons!
2013 SV Leaf, Level 2 charger, so far all works great! 130Km daily, 100% charge at night on 240 then trickle charge for 8H durring the day on 120v.

Level 2 charge starts at 130am environmental starts at 6am to 25c for a toasty warm defrosted car!

TimLee
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Re: Nissan Tests 48-kWh LEAF

Thu Mar 05, 2015 11:38 am

XeonPony wrote:... L2 in Canada is all ready min 70 amps 90Amp average at 240V (On-the-road values)
...
Please clarify.
Maybe the power supply and breakers have been set up to support 70 to 90 amps?
But that has not been a common practice in the US J1772 commercial installations.
Most have been 40 amp and the EVSE is only rated for 30 amps.

There have been very few EVSE available that go beyond 32 amps.
Tony Williams company is now producing some at high amps.
Mentioned in this topic:
http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.p ... =0#p411320" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
But the standard only goes to 80 amps.
And some questions whether the standard is suitable for that.

What is the amp rating of the Canada EVSEs?

Tim Lee
Chattanooga, TN

Man. Date: 03/10/11, VIN # 2026
Delivered 05-17-2011
Blue Ocean, 2011 SL-eTec

XeonPony
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Re: Nissan Tests 48-kWh LEAF

Thu Mar 05, 2015 11:40 am

90 average some odd bals 70 to 80 amps.

for on road units

average in home is 40amp.

Sun country is the usual suplier of the evse, and so far from bc to sask, all have been 90Amp rated.
Last edited by XeonPony on Thu Mar 05, 2015 11:47 am, edited 1 time in total.
2013 SV Leaf, Level 2 charger, so far all works great! 130Km daily, 100% charge at night on 240 then trickle charge for 8H durring the day on 120v.

Level 2 charge starts at 130am environmental starts at 6am to 25c for a toasty warm defrosted car!

Reddy
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Re: Nissan Tests 48-kWh LEAF

Thu Mar 05, 2015 11:43 am

^ Interesting. Yes, faster L2 charger would be great (I have the 3.8 KW so I know the pain, but it's still much faster than L1). I would suggest that Nissan will keep the Chademo and L2 plug, they have to since they have supported so many Chademo installations (even if we don't think there enough in N.A. as opposed to Japan). A faster ability to L2 charge would certainly help in those locations where Chademo is not available. From my personal experience, 48 KW Chademo and 3.8 KW L2 for that matter are both too fast and not fast enough. :o Yes, that's what I said. When traveling through multiple charge events, some stops need more time than 20 min (eating, drinking, sleeping, restroom) and other stops are just too long (especially with the 20 KWH 2011 Leaf battery). With a larger battery, the number of stops gets cut in half, so perhaps those boring stops will be eliminated (who needs another coffee, doughnut, or meal when you just had one 50 miles back?). At times I would do a quick 5 min DCQC, then switch over to L2 and then go to the restaurant. With faster L2 (say 10-15 KW), yes I might just plug in to L2 and skip the DCQC all together (especially for a longer 2 hr lunch, golf, hike, etc.). The 3.8 KW L2 would be glacially slow when traveling with a 48 KWH Leaf, even for overnight sleeping (but it is too fast for the 20 KWH 2011 Leaf). Yes, I know it's a strange concept, but there I've said it: There both too fast and too slow.

However, what I really wanted to say is the next gen Leaf should have CSS (Frankenplug) L2/DC plug included IN ADDITION to the Chademo. This would allow the Leaf to charge at all future stations (except Tesla) whether they are Chademo, CSS, or a combination (which seems to be what most public installations will be going forward). Yes, there aren't a huge number of CSS only stations, but I can see certain dealerships and community only installing these.
Reddy
2011 SL; 9 bar, 45.80 AHr; 45,000 mi; rcv'd Aug 18, 2011
Long: http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.p ... al#p226115"
Cold: http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.p ... 60#p243033"

TimLee
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Re: Nissan Tests 48-kWh LEAF

Thu Mar 05, 2015 12:20 pm

XeonPony wrote:90 average some odd bals 70 to 80 amps.

for on road units

average in home is 40amp.

Sun country is the usual suplier of the evse, and so far from bc to sask, all have been 90Amp rated.
Thanks for the information.

I think where some of my confusion came from is you are using breaker rating, which has become the typical model naming convention.

A lot of the Sun Country installations are UCH-90, 90 amp breaker feed, 72 amp to the vehicle, 17.2 kW.

Some are UCH-60, 60 amp breaker, 48 amp to vehicle, 11.5 kW. A few 30 or 32 amp to the vehicle installations which is most of what is installed in US.

But they do have a UCH-100, 100 amp breaker, 80 amps to the vehicle (maximum of the J1772 standard), 19.2 kW that can charge a Tesla S with dual on board chargers at the fastest J1772 rate.

Would be nice if LEAF Gen 2 had that, but seems doubtful.

I sure hope they put thermal protection on both the EVSE and the vehicle. Doing such current without it seems like a significant deficiency.

Tim Lee
Chattanooga, TN

Man. Date: 03/10/11, VIN # 2026
Delivered 05-17-2011
Blue Ocean, 2011 SL-eTec

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Re: Nissan Tests 48-kWh LEAF

Thu Mar 05, 2015 12:25 pm

We do not have public EVSEs in the USA that are 12kw and over 6kw is very rare. Not to mention the cost of a 9kw or 12kw charger is very expensive at retail car pricing nor would they build that option for a small market like Canada. I would highly doubt they would ever offer 12Kw without a steep premium because of the relative NRE and 9kw would be an option likely. The 9.6kw charger on the RAV is only there as it was on the Tesla drive and it was HIGHLY subsidized. If anything the points seem moot since a pack this size in a LEAF is likely a way out.

XeonPony
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Re: Nissan Tests 48-kWh LEAF

Thu Mar 05, 2015 1:37 pm

dam that sucks for U.S. drivers! most the L2 EVSE's where set up to service all J1772 socket electric vehicles with some future proofing.

The 90Amp figure is the delivered current not breaker fyi, most of those are on the high way and in cities, going through plug share seems most peripheries and such are the more common 25-40 amp range (haven't come across any that small personally)

I just wish these cars could use a fraction of the available current. Nissan will not be helping their sales out with out facilitating faster charging like tesla has, yes it is expensive so what? So is a car so is gas so is a quality cup of coffe.

small price to pay to have a vehicle that can behave a bit closer to a gas vehicle in terms of fuelling up! and more so criticle if going to a larger battery! and there are ways they can integrate a all ready made design like the bursa charger in parallel to their main inverter/charger system via can bus.

It is easily achieved if they chose to, and I am sure most sane and rational people would be happy to have the higher speed even if the over all price was up a bit.

The key word is yet far as 6 to 21Kw EVSE's in the U.S. and Canada is not going to be a small market for long as here there has been a ton of energy going to get EV infastructure don, not as good as the U.S has don on fast chargers but the L2s are going up fast and feriously.

Tesla nailed it by making their charging system capable of fast effective charging with out needing a dcqc, Nissan has a sound car, they just need to take a clue from tesla and do some thing about charge rates.

Simply put for wide range of acceptance they need to do it, even more so with larger battery.
2013 SV Leaf, Level 2 charger, so far all works great! 130Km daily, 100% charge at night on 240 then trickle charge for 8H durring the day on 120v.

Level 2 charge starts at 130am environmental starts at 6am to 25c for a toasty warm defrosted car!

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DaveEV
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Re: Nissan Tests 48-kWh LEAF

Thu Mar 05, 2015 8:32 pm

XeonPony wrote:The 90Amp figure is the delivered current not breaker fyi
That's not possible, J1772 spec is 80A delivered, max. Typical Sun Country EVSEs are either 72A or 80A on a 90A or 100A breaker respectively at either 208VAC or 240VAC depending on what the site has available. The 80A model is the SCH-100 and the 72A model is the SCH-90.

http://suncountryhighway.com/Content/Do ... ure_v1.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

But anyway, that's all picking nits at this point. I think that most would agree that higher current AC charging would be valuable, especially considering how much simpler L2 stations are than DCQC stations.

XeonPony
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Re: Nissan Tests 48-kWh LEAF

Thu Mar 26, 2015 9:16 am

Ok guess the tech was off that was installing it by 10 amps, acceptable in my books. Even at 80A is significant boost in charging speeds, but for safety factor limit to 70 Amps. Still plenty of reserve for a 12Kw charger.

More people need to point this out to nissan, not like they run out of space with the empty rear cavity, once mine is fully paid off (Providing they fix the damned heater) I'd like to further investigate the viability of the bursa mod they did with the older leaf's or even salvaging a charger from a wrecked 2012, as even an additional 3.x Kw would be a massive improvement in the current 24KWh pack.

I love the idea of a 48KWh Leaf, but I won't touch it with a 500yard pole if they do not increase the charger size!
2013 SV Leaf, Level 2 charger, so far all works great! 130Km daily, 100% charge at night on 240 then trickle charge for 8H durring the day on 120v.

Level 2 charge starts at 130am environmental starts at 6am to 25c for a toasty warm defrosted car!

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