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Re: Have B Mode as Deflaut Drive Mode

Posted: Fri Oct 03, 2014 8:17 am
by Travis
lorenfb wrote:In these posters reality, there are no other vehicles on the road, no stop signs, no speed limits, and no
safety issues when driving a car.
It provides energy recovery however not as significant as the energy saved by"driving correctly". These posters are totally correct.

In a perfect world you could coast up to every stop sign without ever pressing the brake. In a perfect world lights would change as you are approaching them. We don't live in a perfect world however careful driving will help you go further than increasing regen will. The regen is nothing more than a stop gap as is stated above. Its to minimize the losses of bad driving.

I can tell you 100% that the difference between "driving correctly" and driving like everyone else is nothing short of night and day. I use the eco mode and feather the accelerator to get the maximum out of my inertia. I try to avoid regen at all costs. I accelerate from stop lights keeping it at 1 bubble. I drive 10 MPH under the speed limit. I don't make any friends with the people behind me however I get to where I'm going when I'm stretching the range. I always try to be considerate. I stay in the right hand lane and if there isn't a passing lane I'll go the speed limit.

I've always said the people who buy the most efficient vehicles are typically the LEAST efficient drivers. Its nothing to see a Prius flying down the highway 85 MPH and flooring it at every stoplight. The few times I've pulled up next to another leaf at stop lights when it turns green they zoom away just as fast as they can.

Edit: Using the same techniques with my previous car (Chevy Cobalt) I was able to achieve better gas mileage than my neighbor and his Prius. It honestly all comes down to driving style.

Re: Have B Mode as Deflaut Drive Mode

Posted: Fri Oct 03, 2014 8:43 am
by nerys
No. Not more miles.

In my world more miles means more than you started with assuming a two way trip

It provides recovery of some miles that otherwise would have been lost.

But never more than you started with.

It is also incorrect to say its a stop gap for bad driving.

Driving deadlines and road etiquette do not equal bad driving.

Less than ideal driving but not bad.

I could Po robably increase my range 50m if I drove 20mph

See how well that works in the real world.

Regen is fantastic. The cars needs more aggressive regen in my book. Much better that using the brakes

I still have my geo metro. I average 62mpg with it. I have hot 70.22mpg tank mpg with it. I think I can mod it for 80mpg.

Re: Have B Mode as Deflaut Drive Mode

Posted: Fri Oct 03, 2014 9:32 am
by Travis
nerys wrote:No. Not more miles. In my world more miles means more than you started with assuming a two way trip. It provides recovery of some miles that otherwise would have been lost. But never more than you started with. It is also incorrect to say its a stop gap for bad driving.
Two way, one way, 1 mile or 60 miles it doesn't matter. You'll go further and use less energy coasting than using the regen. I'm not saying by any means that I never use regen. I'm just kicking myself the entire time its doing it. I could have let off the accelerator faster or anticipated the event better. Its always a constant learning struggle. A street I take every day has a 50 MPH speed limit. If you drive 50 you hit every stop light red. However if you drive 40 you hit every one green. Guess how fast I go. I see the same angry people at the light that just blew past me going 60 and I never even have to slow down.

The difference is shocking and I've tested it myself. When I do regen (eco mode) I typically leave enough of a buffer distance between cars that I don't actually have to press the brake except to come to a final stop. I know its not possible to always coast.

The side benefit to all of this is that driving is a heck of a lot more relaxing than when I drove like everyone else. I get to where I'm going within 10-15 minutes of when I would if I was keeping a 1/2 second following distance like everyone else. I don't care if people cut in front of me. I'm not all aggravated and sour when I get home.

Also FYI.. I have driven home 35 mph before because that was the only way I was going to make it and didn't want to stop at a L2 and the L3 at the dealership was closed for the night. On the secondary roads I drive there is not a minimum speed and there is a passing lane. In the 50mph zone I had my 4-ways going. If thats what it takes thats what it takes. That day I went 102 miles on a degraded battery (86% capacity).

Edit: As the amount of regen goes up so does the heat produced in the battery. The amount that the batteries can capture goes down exponentially with increased current. That heat is all losses (and battery wear). Its the same reason the battery heats up when L3 charging. A significant portion of the charge is being wasted in heat. I have a 2012 without B mode and I don't even utilize all of its regen capability. I'm always hitting the accelerator for LESS regen. Those rare times that I do have to stop faster is for something totally unexpected and no amount of regen can capture that energy.

Re: Have B Mode as Deflaut Drive Mode

Posted: Fri Oct 03, 2014 9:52 am
by dgpcolorado
Travis wrote:...I can tell you 100% that the difference between "driving correctly" and driving like everyone else is nothing short of night and day...
Exactly. And driving efficiently can be something of a game.
...I always try to be considerate. I stay in the right hand lane and if there isn't a passing lane I'll go the speed limit...
I do this too and since all of my highways have only brief passing lanes, if someone is behind me I just dial in the speed limit on cruise — actual, I know the speedometer error on my LEAF — and pull over at the next passing lane. Sometimes people pass me in a huff because I wasn't speeding. Others pull in behind me because they love following someone on cruise and aren't interested in speeding. The drivers around here tend to be mellow and the aggressive ones are the exceptions.

Re: Have B Mode as Deflaut Drive Mode

Posted: Fri Oct 03, 2014 9:54 am
by nerys
You'll go further and use less energy coasting than using the regen.

This is incorrect. Details are important travis. Let me correct it for you.

You'll go further and use less energy coasting under the right conditions than using the regen.

When the conditions are not right, Regen is nice.

Details are important.

Re: Have B Mode as Deflaut Drive Mode

Posted: Fri Oct 03, 2014 10:02 am
by lorenfb
Travis wrote:
nerys wrote:No. Not more miles. In my world more miles means more than you started with assuming a two way trip. It provides recovery of some miles that otherwise would have been lost. But never more than you started with. It is also incorrect to say its a stop gap for bad driving.
Two way, one way, 1 mile or 60 miles it doesn't matter. You'll go further and use less energy coasting than using the regen. I'm not saying by any means that I never use regen. I'm just kicking myself the entire time its doing it. I could have let off the accelerator faster or anticipated the event better. Its always a constant learning struggle. A street I take every day has a 50 MPH speed limit. If you drive 50 you hit every stop light red. However if you drive 40 you hit every one green. Guess how fast I go. I see the same angry people at the light that just blew past me going 60 and I never even have to slow down.

The difference is shocking and I've tested it myself. When I do regen (eco mode) I typically leave enough of a buffer distance between cars that I don't actually have to press the brake except to come to a final stop. I know its not possible to always coast.

The side benefit to all of this is that driving is a heck of a lot more relaxing than when I drove like everyone else. I get to where I'm going within 10-15 minutes of when I would if I was keeping a 1/2 second following distance like everyone else. I don't care if people cut in front of me. I'm not all aggravated and sour when I get home.

Also FYI.. I have driven home 35 mph before because that was the only way I was going to make it and didn't want to stop at a L2 and the L3 at the dealership was closed for the night. On the secondary roads I drive there is not a minimum speed and there is a passing lane. In the 50mph zone I had my 4-ways going. If thats what it takes thats what it takes. That day I went 102 miles on a degraded battery (86% capacity).

Edit: As the amount of regen goes up so does the heat produced in the battery. The amount that the batteries can capture goes down exponentially with increased current. That heat is all losses (and battery wear). Its the same reason the battery heats up when L3 charging. A significant portion of the charge is being wasted in heat. I have a 2012 without B mode and I don't even utilize all of its regen capability. I'm always hitting the accelerator for LESS regen. Those rare times that I do have to stop faster is for something totally unexpected and no amount of regen can capture that energy.
Sounds like you need to submit an engineering consult proposal to all the BEVs, e.g. Tesla, Nissan,
and BMW. Again, how could those companies have overlooked what has been written in this thread?
If wasn't for the knowledge posted on the internet, where would companies obtain the technical
where-with-all? It's incredible!

Re: Have B Mode as Deflaut Drive Mode

Posted: Fri Oct 03, 2014 10:14 am
by Travis
lorenfb wrote: Sounds like you need to submit an engineering consult proposal to all the BEVs, e.g. Tesla, Nissan,
and BMW. Again, how could those companies have overlooked what has been written in this thread?
If wasn't for the knowledge posted on the internet, where would companies obtain the technical
where-with-all? It's incredible!
This isn't a secret. All of their engineers are well aware. Its even stated in the owners manual of the car. The range of the car is highly variable and is totally up to the driver.

As I stated I *DO* use regen however I keep it to a minimum because that isn't the most efficient way to drive.

I'm not saying that it should be omitted from the car. I'm simply saying that if you want to wait till the last second to let off the accelerator and expect B mode to make up for the difference in your driving style that isn't going to happen. Its an inefficient way of driving. If you feel like you need B-Mode to slow down without hitting your brakes you were probably going to fast to begin with.

Edit: This is coming from a flat lander. If you are going down a large hill your mileage may vary.

Re: Have B Mode as Deflaut Drive Mode

Posted: Fri Oct 03, 2014 10:28 am
by nerys
I want more regen simply to reduce the need for brakes as well :-)

Re: Have B Mode as Deflaut Drive Mode

Posted: Wed Oct 08, 2014 4:25 am
by minispeed
lorenfb wrote: Sounds like you need to submit an engineering consult proposal to all the BEVs, e.g. Tesla, Nissan,
and BMW. Again, how could those companies have overlooked what has been written in this thread?
If wasn't for the knowledge posted on the internet, where would companies obtain the technical
where-with-all? It's incredible!

Their engineers are given many jobs, 2 important ones are making the car get the highest possible range on the EPA test and ensuring that the average driver can get close to that range. (search Honda Civic hybrid lawsuits, look at Ford and Hyundai changing the ratings and offering rebates). The tests are carefully controlled so there will be a level of regen that will give a better test number. They can't just coast during it and if B mode gave them a better test it would then be default.

Even the cars that will be offering a coast function will probably not do it by default (VW group, not just BEV but also the ICE DCT transmission will go into neutral and coast).

Another job they are given is to make the car drive like an ICE. People are use to having the car slow down if you lift off the "gas" pedal. The engineer saying in a meeting "this is better because.... blah blah blah (no one understands it)" will always lose to the marketing guy saying "if we did that people won't buy our car".

As a previous poster said (in reference to the prius) some of the people most motivated to buy an efficent car are the ones who drive in a fashion that nets them the worst fuel economy. The engineers have to factor in a program that gives those people as close to EPA range as possible without doing anything. They also know that if they make the car able to coast by doing 2 different things in the exact order with great timing that people like myself and others who want to coast will figure it out, will do it and will be happy with the result even if they go to the internet saying how stupid it was that it wasn't the default.

Re: Have B Mode as Deflaut Drive Mode

Posted: Wed Oct 08, 2014 4:55 am
by nerys
That all makes sense with a mechanical car. It does not make sense with an electtonic car where they can do exactly what you say and then procide a simply menu option to let others do what they want.