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Re: Battery Upgrades are very possible

Posted: Sun Nov 10, 2019 1:31 am
by mux
A few things;

First of all, Leaf Box is a homeopathic device, it can't actually do most of anything it purports to do. It's not on EV-CAN, where all the information is it's supposed to modify to make B mode/gliding/etc. possible.

So we will definitely never implement the Leaf Box. We do implement a lot of the features LB supposedly adds though, including B mode and gliding.

We also implement bidirectional CHAdeMO, but this requires a separate module (as it needs to intercept the QC CAN). Also it's still quite experimental, as with a lot of features.

Anything we do with the MITM module that causes issues can be resolved with Leaf Spy or, in a really bad case of our hardware failing, bypassing the MITM board and returning the car to its original state (and then clearing all errors). You can't really 'brick' the car this way, although there are instances where you absolutely do need LSP. We're trying to resolve this issue by making a hardware alternative to leaf spy pro, but progress on this is very slow.

Re: Battery Upgrades are very possible

Posted: Sun Nov 10, 2019 1:43 am
by Lothsahn
mux wrote:
Sun Nov 10, 2019 1:31 am
A few things;

First of all, Leaf Box is a homeopathic device, it can't actually do most of anything it purports to do. It's not on EV-CAN, where all the information is it's supposed to modify to make B mode/gliding/etc. possible.

So we will definitely never implement the Leaf Box. We do implement a lot of the features LB supposedly adds though, including B mode and gliding.

We also implement bidirectional CHAdeMO, but this requires a separate module (as it needs to intercept the QC CAN). Also it's still quite experimental, as with a lot of features.

Anything we do with the MITM module that causes issues can be resolved with Leaf Spy or, in a really bad case of our hardware failing, bypassing the MITM board and returning the car to its original state (and then clearing all errors). You can't really 'brick' the car this way, although there are instances where you absolutely do need LSP. We're trying to resolve this issue by making a hardware alternative to leaf spy pro, but progress on this is very slow.
Sorry, I shouldn't have said brick. I meant "if things go wrong, the car may stop functioning, or may stop functioning abruptly while being used, in a way that is highly undesirable and potentially unsafe".

BTW, I'm not implying your solution is unsafe. I fully expect you'll have the issues worked out by the time you release the module. But if there are bugs, the worst case scenario is the car could decide that something has gone wrong and either go to turtle or cut engine power entirely.

Thanks for the info on the LeafBox. It sounded amazing--with reasonable explanations of how it works, but yes, it would have to intercept EV-CAN messages to function.

I look forward to your products!

Re: Battery Upgrades are very possible

Posted: Sun Nov 10, 2019 2:51 am
by Oilpan4
Is there any possibility of a mod that would allow charging with the j1772 and low power chademo at the same time?

Re: Battery Upgrades are very possible

Posted: Sun Nov 10, 2019 7:07 am
by mux
Lothsahn wrote:
Sun Nov 10, 2019 1:43 am
Sorry, I shouldn't have said brick. I meant "if things go wrong, the car may stop functioning, or may stop functioning abruptly while being used, in a way that is highly undesirable and potentially unsafe".

BTW, I'm not implying your solution is unsafe. I fully expect you'll have the issues worked out by the time you release the module. But if there are bugs, the worst case scenario is the car could decide that something has gone wrong and either go to turtle or cut engine power entirely.

Thanks for the info on the LeafBox. It sounded amazing--with reasonable explanations of how it works, but yes, it would have to intercept EV-CAN messages to function.

I look forward to your products!
Oh, we've had some really bad issues during the beta period, people indeed losing all power while on the passing lane. We've very recently had somebody this happened to and it wasn't even our fault technically (thinking of publishing something about that soon), just an issue that can happen in cold weather with the really degraded 2011 batteries.

We've been testing for a LONG time and trying to understand the car inside and out to prevent this kind of stuff from happening again, but I mean, it is black box reverse engineering. Shit can happen. We do our best to reduce the incidence to, say, being less likely to happen than a blowout or something else of similar calamity, but I don't expect us to be able to craft the perfect product. All we can do is move ever closer to that six sigma, once-in-a-million-miles issue.

@Oilpan4: only with our three phase charging upgrade. There are a lot of firmware and hardware lockouts preventing you from engaging QC relays and the OBC at the same time, at least in the 2011. We can bypass this by adding extra chargers.

Re: Battery Upgrades are very possible

Posted: Sun Nov 10, 2019 12:33 pm
by Oilpan4
What will be the maximum input voltage on your 3 phase charging mod?

Re: Battery Upgrades are very possible

Posted: Sun Nov 10, 2019 2:00 pm
by Lothsahn
mux wrote:
Sun Nov 10, 2019 7:07 am
Oh, we've had some really bad issues during the beta period, people indeed losing all power while on the passing lane. We've very recently had somebody this happened to and it wasn't even our fault technically (thinking of publishing something about that soon), just an issue that can happen in cold weather with the really degraded 2011 batteries.
I would be very interested in this. As a previous owner of a 55% SOH 2011, I never had any issues (aside from range) even in very cold weather (-5C). However, the car was always stored in a heated garage, so the battery never really dropped below freezing.
mux wrote:
Sun Nov 10, 2019 7:07 am
We've been testing for a LONG time and trying to understand the car inside and out to prevent this kind of stuff from happening again, but I mean, it is black box reverse engineering. Shit can happen. We do our best to reduce the incidence to, say, being less likely to happen than a blowout or something else of similar calamity, but I don't expect us to be able to craft the perfect product. All we can do is move ever closer to that six sigma, once-in-a-million-miles issue.
This is absolutely the right attitude. I'm sure that with the rigor and testing you're giving it, your product will be great. But this is just a good reason to consider mux's product vs others--there's a lot of engineering that takes something from "it works" to "it works reliably".

Re: Battery Upgrades are very possible

Posted: Sun Nov 10, 2019 11:21 pm
by mux
Oilpan4 wrote:
Sun Nov 10, 2019 12:33 pm
What will be the maximum input voltage on your 3 phase charging mod?
We use TC Chargers, so 270VAC/350VDC

Re: Battery Upgrades are very possible

Posted: Mon Nov 11, 2019 8:58 am
by Oilpan4
Could their be an option for 480vac?
I have easier access to 3 phase 480 than I do 3 phase 240.

Re: Battery Upgrades are very possible

Posted: Mon Nov 11, 2019 10:47 am
by mux
Not with any particularly easily available chargers on the market. Can you (legally) rearrange the phases to reduce the AC voltage? In the Netherlands we have flexible three phase; you can either use them as neutral-referenced 120 degree separated 230VAC phases or as delta-style 400VAC three-phase.

Re: Battery Upgrades are very possible

Posted: Mon Nov 11, 2019 9:21 pm
by camasleaf
mux wrote:
Mon Nov 11, 2019 10:47 am
In the Netherlands we have flexible three phase; you can either use them as neutral-referenced 120 degree separated 230VAC phases or as delta-style 400VAC three-phase.
It depends on the configuration of the 480V system. Phase to neutral loads are not allowed on high/low resistance grounded systems and in ungrounded systems. I believe most new 480V systems are high resistance grounded. Very few (old) systems are neutral solidly grounded.