LeftieBiker
Moderator
Posts: 15037
Joined: Wed May 22, 2013 3:17 am
Delivery Date: 30 Apr 2018
Location: Upstate New York, US

Re: Replaced 12v Lead with 12v Lithium

Mon Mar 30, 2020 1:28 pm

My guess is that the big new battery isn't being charged fully often enough to make up for that high intermittent drain. If you can fully charge the 12 volt battery once a week, and top it off whenever plugged in, that may help, but yeah - you need to find and eliminate the drain. The TCU is usually the #1 suspect.
Scarlet Ember 2018 Leaf SL W/ Pro Pilot
2009 Vectrix VX-1 W/18 Leaf modules, & 3 EZIP E-bicycles.
BAFX OBDII Dongle
PLEASE don't PM me with Leaf questions. Just post in the topic that seems most appropriate.

BrockWI
Posts: 835
Joined: Fri Mar 28, 2014 6:28 am
Delivery Date: 28 Mar 2014
Leaf Number: 423875
Location: Green Bay, WI.
Contact: Website

Re: Replaced 12v Lead with 12v Lithium

Mon Mar 30, 2020 2:34 pm

Totally ironic, but today we ran out to my in-laws to drop off groceries. It is about a 25 minute drive, mostly highway. We brought their groceries in, talked to them from the porch for maybe 10 minutes and went to leave and guess what, the Leaf was dead. I thought "You have got to be kidding me", honestly it was less than 15 minutes. So I flipped the back seat down, crawled in the back (hatch wouldn't even pop open), grabbed the battery (12v 9Ah SLA) and 10mm wrench. Plugged the battery in parallel had my wife try to start it, it lit up like a x-mas tree. I had her shut it off, disconnected the neg from the 12v battery and had only the sla battery on and she tried again and it fired right up. Reconnected the main 12v with a tiny spark, disconnected the SLA and put it all back in the trunk and drove away.

So what the heck, I did charge the 12v Saturday morning (2 days ago) full, only took about 4 hours at 2 amps to get to float. But how was it not charging the 12v while we drove out there? It is currently charging the traction pack since we got home with 30% and of course the 12v is showing 13.98v. I will bulk charge it again once the car is done charging.

I am really tempted to add a battery up front with knife switch to parallel it to the other battery. I thought about a solenoid with a momentary switch in the cabin to parallel them, but that would be work, although my wife would like that if it is cold or raining, she has "jumped" it a couple of times herself. But what if one of our kids has the car, which luckily hasn't happened, yet, they would have to call and I walk them through the process.
2013 S model with QC package Mar of 2013
lost first bar @ 72k
@100k miles - 57.3Ahr - 87.62SOH - 84.13Hx - 241GID
3.3 kw solar pv - XW6048 - eight L16's
4 ton GSHP - 1 ton ASHP
2003 VW TDI 210k miles - 52 mpg lifetime
EVSE level 2 - Clipper Creek HSC-40

LeftieBiker
Moderator
Posts: 15037
Joined: Wed May 22, 2013 3:17 am
Delivery Date: 30 Apr 2018
Location: Upstate New York, US

Re: Replaced 12v Lead with 12v Lithium

Mon Mar 30, 2020 3:39 pm

It sounds like the new battery is bad. It may have been seriously damaged the first time it got too low. Some batteries withstand extreme low voltage better than others, I'm afraid. It could also have been bad off the shelf, but given the vampire drain issue, I think the second possibility is more likely.
Scarlet Ember 2018 Leaf SL W/ Pro Pilot
2009 Vectrix VX-1 W/18 Leaf modules, & 3 EZIP E-bicycles.
BAFX OBDII Dongle
PLEASE don't PM me with Leaf questions. Just post in the topic that seems most appropriate.

BrockWI
Posts: 835
Joined: Fri Mar 28, 2014 6:28 am
Delivery Date: 28 Mar 2014
Leaf Number: 423875
Location: Green Bay, WI.
Contact: Website

Re: Replaced 12v Lead with 12v Lithium

Mon Mar 30, 2020 5:16 pm

Well that's the thing. The 51R that is in there is now 3.5 years old, but last fall (when it was 3 years old) I did load test the battery by charging it full, then putting a 10a load on and ran it for 3 hours and it was still at 11.6v while under load. So last fall it was at least a 30 Ah battery, probably closer to 40Ah if I ran it all the way down. For the heck of it (and since I am working from home) I am going to run the same test once it is full to see how long it can run a 10 amp load.

FYI my totally unscientific method is to use an old xantrex 700w inverter with a 100w incandescent light bulb and an old fashion analog clock. I set the clock to noon and turn it on, then plug the light bulb in and walk away. The nice thing is the inverter will shut off at about 11v under load so the battery will be pretty low, but not dead dead and then I just look at the clock to see how long it ran to get a rough guess of useable Ah in the battery. I know when I start it is usually pulling about 9.5 amps and after an hour about 10 amps and after 2 hours over 10 amps. Basically as the battery voltage drops the amperage increases to maintain the 115v output side of the inverter. Then for fun I charge it back full using a watthour meter and see how much I have to put back in, usually about 15% more than I took out.
2013 S model with QC package Mar of 2013
lost first bar @ 72k
@100k miles - 57.3Ahr - 87.62SOH - 84.13Hx - 241GID
3.3 kw solar pv - XW6048 - eight L16's
4 ton GSHP - 1 ton ASHP
2003 VW TDI 210k miles - 52 mpg lifetime
EVSE level 2 - Clipper Creek HSC-40

nlspace
Posts: 203
Joined: Mon Jun 05, 2017 10:21 pm
Delivery Date: 06 Jun 2017

It's not a new battery anymore.

Mon Mar 30, 2020 5:50 pm

3-1/2 years in a Laef is a worn out battery. It has sulfated to the point that it can no longer hold a charge.

Put a voltmeter on it and watch how low it gets pulled down during START.

It only takes 2 hours for charging the bulk stage because it has no room for any charge, and it's only a surface charge that holds the voltage up--but it has no guts and under load it will drop like a brick.

Don't mess with a parallel aux, just buy a new one and be done with it. Also if you want to get longer life then use a smart charger such as a Yuasa every week to keep it fully charged--lead batteries can permanently sulfate in as little as 3 days. Good Luck to you and keep safe.

BrockWI
Posts: 835
Joined: Fri Mar 28, 2014 6:28 am
Delivery Date: 28 Mar 2014
Leaf Number: 423875
Location: Green Bay, WI.
Contact: Website

Re: Replaced 12v Lead with 12v Lithium

Mon Mar 30, 2020 6:30 pm

I believe you are correct, running the battery dead to many times may have killed it. It ran for 40 minutes, which would put it about 6Ah, that's not going to cut it. I will charge it back full again and try one more time but it looks like a new battery is in order. You may not have read, but I do regularly charge it. As far as bulk charging in two hours, that SHOULD be the case if the battery was kept at a decent capacity as it should just be topping off the battery, but alas it is not.

If only just getting a 12v battery would fix this, but I have had the problem of the Leaf running the 12v dead at least once a month since the car was new. This is actually the third battery now, this one has lasted the longest at 3.5 years, but I have been more diligent about charging it regularly. Whatever is running it dead once in a while is basically killing them when that happens.
2013 S model with QC package Mar of 2013
lost first bar @ 72k
@100k miles - 57.3Ahr - 87.62SOH - 84.13Hx - 241GID
3.3 kw solar pv - XW6048 - eight L16's
4 ton GSHP - 1 ton ASHP
2003 VW TDI 210k miles - 52 mpg lifetime
EVSE level 2 - Clipper Creek HSC-40

nlspace
Posts: 203
Joined: Mon Jun 05, 2017 10:21 pm
Delivery Date: 06 Jun 2017

Re: Replaced 12v Lead with 12v Lithium

Mon Mar 30, 2020 6:39 pm

i went thru a similar issue. i used a clamp-on current probe, then started pulling fuses under the hood to see which circuit was pulling the current. Can't remember what it was but eventually found it. Is there a light in the trunk on a manual switch? It was something stupid like that.

LeftieBiker
Moderator
Posts: 15037
Joined: Wed May 22, 2013 3:17 am
Delivery Date: 30 Apr 2018
Location: Upstate New York, US

Re: Replaced 12v Lead with 12v Lithium

Mon Mar 30, 2020 6:40 pm

Have you tried removing the fuse for the TCU and leaving it out for a few days? I'm not sure if that fuse powers anything else important, though. Anyone? Bueller?

The clamp-on ammeter can be used to see if the drain is gone as each accessory fuse is pulled.
Scarlet Ember 2018 Leaf SL W/ Pro Pilot
2009 Vectrix VX-1 W/18 Leaf modules, & 3 EZIP E-bicycles.
BAFX OBDII Dongle
PLEASE don't PM me with Leaf questions. Just post in the topic that seems most appropriate.

BrockWI
Posts: 835
Joined: Fri Mar 28, 2014 6:28 am
Delivery Date: 28 Mar 2014
Leaf Number: 423875
Location: Green Bay, WI.
Contact: Website

Re: Replaced 12v Lead with 12v Lithium

Mon Mar 30, 2020 6:49 pm

I don't believe the 13 S model has a TCU, I thought I looked in to that initially and was told the S's didn't have them.
2013 S model with QC package Mar of 2013
lost first bar @ 72k
@100k miles - 57.3Ahr - 87.62SOH - 84.13Hx - 241GID
3.3 kw solar pv - XW6048 - eight L16's
4 ton GSHP - 1 ton ASHP
2003 VW TDI 210k miles - 52 mpg lifetime
EVSE level 2 - Clipper Creek HSC-40

GerryAZ
Gold Member
Posts: 2527
Joined: Mon Nov 22, 2010 6:47 pm
Delivery Date: 12 Jun 2011
Location: Phoenix, AZ

Re: Replaced 12v Lead with 12v Lithium

Mon Mar 30, 2020 9:37 pm

I had the little relay for the other TCU (transmission control unit) intermittently stick closed on the 2011. That kept the transmission control unit energized which caused excessive residual current. It was so intermittent that it took me a while to find it. I replaced the little relay and all was well until the car met its demise.

Edited to add: In my case, I received an ominous message on the dash something like "T/M System Malfunction" the next time I started the car each time after the relay failed to drop out. I was lucky that it never failed while parked long term, but I was worried about that until I found the problem.
Last edited by GerryAZ on Mon Mar 30, 2020 9:57 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Gerry
Silver LEAF 2011 SL rear ended (totaled) by in-attentive driver 1/4/2015 at 50,422 miles
Silver LEAF 2015 SL purchased 2/7/2015; traded 8/10/2019 at 82,436 miles
White LEAF 2019 SL Plus purchased 8/10/2019

Return to “Accessories / Mods”