alozzy
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Re: Replaced 12v Lead with 12v Lithium

Wed Apr 01, 2020 12:58 am

I've resisted posting to this thread for a long time, but I have to say that this is one of those posts where I'm astounded by how much attention it gets - 17 pages (now 18, sorry!) Really??

Knock yourself out, if you see any sense in spending $$$ on a 12V lithium battery, but honestly if my 12V lead acid battery starts giving me problems, I'll spend $70 on a new one and then forget about it for another 4 or 5 years. I definitely have better things to spend my money on...
Vancouver, CA owner of a 2013 Ocean Blue SV + QC, purchased 01/2017 in WA
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Loving my first BEV :D

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Stanton
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Leaf Number: 7458
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Re: Replaced 12v Lead with 12v Lithium

Wed Apr 01, 2020 6:42 am

knightmb wrote:
Tue Mar 31, 2020 5:08 pm
[Lithium] Battery is always +13 volts if I do a random spot check even in sub freezing weather. As I said many times before, why didn't they just use a lithium for the 12 volt system, but I guess an extra +$200 to cost couldn't be justified. :?
LeftieBiker wrote:
Tue Mar 31, 2020 6:55 pm
The reason I asked is that those of us in the small EV community have found that a typical Chinese-built BMS is as likely or more likely to malfunction and cause a pack failure as is long-term degradation.
These two (edited by me) posts sum up my experiences...which is why I started this thread in the first place!
1) My 12v Lithium battery has consistently outperformed it's Lead predecessor in most environmental conditions, and the high price of the "good" ones is partially justified by
2) A BMS is an essential part of a (proper) Lithium battery pack design, and is probably missing from the "cheap" 12v Lithium batteries out there.

You get what you pay for...and you shouldn't have to pay for more than a 20Ahr 12v battery for a Leaf.
2011 Blue Ocean SV w/floor mats & window tint
12v LiFePO4 battery with Antigravity Battery Tracker
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Battery Pack replaced (Rev E) @51 months and 41k miles

DaveinOlyWA
Posts: 14878
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Leaf Number: 319862
Location: Olympia, WA
Contact: Website

Re: Replaced 12v Lead with 12v Lithium

Wed Apr 01, 2020 6:48 am

alozzy wrote:
Wed Apr 01, 2020 12:58 am
I've resisted posting to this thread for a long time, but I have to say that this is one of those posts where I'm astounded by how much attention it gets - 17 pages (now 18, sorry!) Really??

Knock yourself out, if you see any sense in spending $$$ on a 12V lithium battery, but honestly if my 12V lead acid battery starts giving me problems, I'll spend $70 on a new one and then forget about it for another 4 or 5 years. I definitely have better things to spend my money on...
This thread exists BECAUSE it is not that simple. Some are seeing failures after ONE year.
2011 SL; 44,598 mi, 87% SOH. 2013 S; 44,840 mi, 91% SOH. 2016 S30; 29,413 mi, 99% SOH. 2018 S; 25,185 mi, SOH 92.23%. 2019 S Plus; 11,333.1 mi, 93.73% SOH
My Blog; http://daveinolywa.blogspot.com" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

knightmb
Posts: 472
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Leaf Number: 414897
Location: Franklin, TN

Re: Replaced 12v Lead with 12v Lithium

Wed Apr 01, 2020 8:40 am

DaveinOlyWA wrote:
Wed Apr 01, 2020 6:48 am
alozzy wrote:
Wed Apr 01, 2020 12:58 am
I've resisted posting to this thread for a long time, but I have to say that this is one of those posts where I'm astounded by how much attention it gets - 17 pages (now 18, sorry!) Really??

Knock yourself out, if you see any sense in spending $$$ on a 12V lithium battery, but honestly if my 12V lead acid battery starts giving me problems, I'll spend $70 on a new one and then forget about it for another 4 or 5 years. I definitely have better things to spend my money on...
This thread exists BECAUSE it is not that simple. Some are seeing failures after ONE year.
The most my wife could get out of hers was about 3 years per battery and these are the ones that Nissan provides for replacement under warranty. She made the same argument though, so I do respect that paying more for something that may or may not be a problem is a good reason not to mess with the lithium. She got stuck twice because of the dead battery. Once while at work (cold day) and another time in the morning when it was cold and had to jump start it both times from mine while I am grinning the whole time :mrgreen:
2013 Leaf SV

frontrangeleaf
Posts: 120
Joined: Sat Aug 03, 2019 10:07 am
Delivery Date: 08 Jul 2019
Location: Denver Area

Re: Replaced 12v Lead with 12v Lithium

Wed Apr 01, 2020 2:03 pm

Cursory look at price of lithium replacement appears to be prohibitive. About 3-5x more. Not worth it for this car to us.

Following struggles here with interest, nevertheless. As I understand matters, this is primarily an issue with older Gen 1 Leafs, and above all for those who leave their cars plugged in for long periods, barring one-off problems with phantom loads.

Is that correct?
Empty-nesters - NW Denver-Boulder Area

2019 Leaf SL Plus
2015 Audi Q5 TDI
2007 BMW Z4 3.0Si
2012 VW GTI

LeftieBiker
Moderator
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Re: Replaced 12v Lead with 12v Lithium

Wed Apr 01, 2020 2:57 pm

As I understand matters, this is primarily an issue with older Gen 1 Leafs, and above all for those who leave their cars plugged in for long periods, barring one-off problems with phantom loads.

Is that correct?
It's mainly a problem with pre-'15 leafs, especially with pre-'14. The phantom loads are maybe a bit more common than 'one-off' though. Leaving the car plugged in but not charging is a great way to drain the accessory battery, but the problem also occurs with people who don't do that. Further complicating the matter is the apparent fact that the '13 Leaf accessory batteries had a higher than normal defect rate, especially compared to the earlier Japanese-built Leaf accessory batteries.
Scarlet Ember 2018 Leaf SL W/ Pro Pilot
2009 Vectrix VX-1 W/18 Leaf modules, & 3 EZIP E-bicycles.
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PLEASE don't PM me with Leaf questions. Just post in the topic that seems most appropriate.

frontrangeleaf
Posts: 120
Joined: Sat Aug 03, 2019 10:07 am
Delivery Date: 08 Jul 2019
Location: Denver Area

Re: Replaced 12v Lead with 12v Lithium

Wed Apr 01, 2020 4:07 pm

LeftieBiker wrote:
Wed Apr 01, 2020 2:57 pm
As I understand matters, this is primarily an issue with older Gen 1 Leafs, and above all for those who leave their cars plugged in for long periods, barring one-off problems with phantom loads.

Is that correct?
It's mainly a problem with pre-'15 leafs, especially with pre-'14. The phantom loads are maybe a bit more common than 'one-off' though. Leaving the car plugged in but not charging is a great way to drain the accessory battery, but the problem also occurs with people who don't do that. Further complicating the matter is the apparent fact that the '13 Leaf accessory batteries had a higher than normal defect rate, especially compared to the earlier Japanese-built Leaf accessory batteries.
Thanks Leftie. So far so good (knock wood). We've had no issues so far. The only cars we have on battery tenders are the 2 conventional cars we still have here, since we're not driving them right now. Our son drives the fourth one. (I feel like Jay Leno Jr when I walk into the garage these days, lol...)
Empty-nesters - NW Denver-Boulder Area

2019 Leaf SL Plus
2015 Audi Q5 TDI
2007 BMW Z4 3.0Si
2012 VW GTI

GerryAZ
Gold Member
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Location: Phoenix, AZ

Re: Replaced 12v Lead with 12v Lithium

Wed Apr 01, 2020 9:25 pm

Frontrangeleaf,

Don't worry about the 2019 SL+ since you have time left on the bumper-to-bumper warranty. As I said before in several threads, I have never connected an external 12-volt charger to any of my LEAFs and the OEM batteries in the 2011 and 2015 both lasted longer than normal in my climate. I expect the battery in the 2019 will last at least 2 or 3 years before I need to consider replacement. Like you, I keep moving my 12-volt chargers between my other vehicles because they don't get enough use.
Gerry
Silver LEAF 2011 SL rear ended (totaled) by in-attentive driver 1/4/2015 at 50,422 miles
Silver LEAF 2015 SL purchased 2/7/2015; traded 8/10/2019 at 82,436 miles
White LEAF 2019 SL Plus purchased 8/10/2019

lorenfb
Posts: 2441
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Leaf Number: 416635
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Re: Replaced 12v Lead with 12v Lithium

Thu Apr 02, 2020 9:43 am

LeftieBiker wrote:
Wed Apr 01, 2020 2:57 pm
As I understand matters, this is primarily an issue with older Gen 1 Leafs, and above all for those who leave their cars plugged in for long periods, barring one-off problems with phantom loads.

Is that correct?
It's mainly a problem with pre-'15 leafs, especially with pre-'14.
I've never had any 12V battery problems with my '13 Leaf, i.e. about 6.5 years now still with the original battery. The '13 Leaf was not used
recently for over two weeks without driving or charging, while I drove the '19 Leaf, and it started without a problem yesterday. Too bad my
ICEVs don't have a huge "backup battery" like my BEVs, then I wouldn't need battery maintainers on each ICEV.
#1 Leaf SL MY 9/13: 76K miles, 47 Ahrs, 5.0 miles/kWh (average), Hx=70, SOH=73, L2 - 100% > 1000, temp < 95F, (DOD) > 20 Ahrs
#2 Leaf SL MY 12/18: 10.3K miles, SOH 109Ahrs/115Ahrs, 5.2 miles/kWh (average), DOD > 20%, temp < 105F

sneaky
Posts: 2
Joined: Fri Sep 30, 2016 2:24 pm
Delivery Date: 30 Mar 2014
Leaf Number: 335715

Re: Replaced 12v Lead with 12v Lithium

Sun May 24, 2020 7:30 pm

I have been overly plagued with this leaf battery problem to no end on my 2015 SL. My 2014 SV never had a problem. It started doing this just after the 3G telematics upgrade, the battery would run down to 3v, I would charge it, then it would happen again. I got a USB voltage logger "Lascar Electronics EL-USB-3 USB Voltage Data Logger" which was great, I could read the data from the logger and print the graphs and show the dealer what was happening. You can set the log time as short as 20 seconds to pick up spikes. Their opinion was to put in a new battery for $250, so I did. The logger showed it happened again after that, so I found a software update for the 3G unit that was supposed to prevent the battery drain and had the dealer install that. It is described here: https://mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?p=535176#p535176 They charged me $180 to do that. But It happened again after that, drained to 3v. Then the electronic ABS Brake booster unit failed, a loud clunk noise when you press on the brake pedal. They wanted $3500 to fix that. My 2014 was wrecked when I was hit by a drunk driver, I still have it, so I used the ABS unit from my 2014 and put it in myself, had to get a consult-III tool to calibrate the brake pedal position. Now the new battery was bad again from deep cycling. My suspicion is that the low voltage caused the ABS unit to go wacky and burned itself out. I put in the battery from my 2014 and it was holding above 12.5v most of the time, verified by the logger, and things seemed ok for about a year. Then the telematics quit working. After six months my wife wanted it fixed, she likes to turn on the ac before she goes out to the car from work. She won't drive a smoker anymore. Once you taste electric you're addicted. So I took it to the dealer and they said the telematics unit had failed, wanted $500 for a new one and programming. I took the car home and searched the blogs, also put the logger in again, I was thinking of stealing the telematics unit from my 2014 instead of buying another one. But then I found the battery had dropped to 12.18v. In the meantime I had been working my own DIY lithium battery solution, and had purchased a battery from Energized Outdoors for $145 "12V 20Ah Lithium Iron Phosphate Battery". I think their name has now changed to Amped Outdoors. So it seemed like the time to finish my project, I hooked up some SAE terminal posts from auto-zone because I didn't want to modify the battery cables on the car, drilled some 3/8 holes in a small metal plate from home depot to mount the SAE battery posts to the battery, as the lithium battery has small 5M screw posts, it is not a car CCA rated battery, it is a reserve capacity battery. I put a piece of wood under the battery mounting bracket to match the height, and got it installed in the car. The battery now stays above 13v, charges at 14.5v, everything seems fine now. When the battery gets under 12.5v all kinds of wacky things start to happen on that Leaf. I'm surprised the dealer didn't check the battery when they were diagnosing the telematics again. Also that telematics unit that the dealer said was bad is working fine now. If my DIY project fails I'll report it, but for now, it seems like a cheap solution. Amazon also has a 30ah version for $150, I probably would have got that one but it wasn't there when I got mine. Thanks to all you bloggers for sharing, maybe this helps someone as well.
Last edited by sneaky on Mon May 25, 2020 4:46 pm, edited 3 times in total.

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