LeftieBiker
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Re: Idea for apartment dwellers: 'host' charging through window

Mon Feb 04, 2019 1:28 am

Char(g)ing loads are potentially far more dangerous than startup surges.
Yes, that's my point. Plugging in an EVSE because a breaker doesn't trip immediately with an overload is dangerous, to say the least.
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Quothmar
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Re: Idea for apartment dwellers: 'host' charging through window

Mon Feb 04, 2019 5:56 am

Oilpan4 wrote:A good test would be if you can draw more than 150% amps over a breaker for more than 3 minutes it's probably bad, unless it's some old obsolete style of breaker, that may be normal for them and likely the reason they're obsolete.
Thanks -- I'll keep that in mind. I would feel bad about leaving a vacuum, a table saw, and a dehumidifier on for several hours, but if it's one time only, it should be for a good cause.

When you say it's 'dangerous', it makes me wonder how that should be defined. There is, obviously, the danger that gas fumes have on pedestrians and on the ozone layer, and then as you mention there's the danger of a fire if circuits are overloaded. What if the danger of a fire occurs with something like 0.001% probability? I don't know enough about electricity to calculate the figures, but I think some kind of cost-benefit analysis would weigh in.

My idea about host charging is something to help apartment complexes get on board with letting their residents charge their electric vehicles at home. Once they go to, say, about 5 or 6 electric vehicles, they could then install charging stations. Opposing it, there is the on-demand charging station idea, where as soon as one person buys an electric car the complex management must shortly thereafter install a charging station for that single owner. I don't disagree with this idea, but I can imagine homeowner associations everywhere pitching a fit over it.

If not by host charging, how would you say that we should get apartment complexes to make it practical for residents to own electric vehicles?

Oilpan4
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Re: Idea for apartment dwellers: 'host' charging through window

Mon Feb 04, 2019 6:38 am

In regards to dangerous and electrical wiring anything that runs more than 80% of the continuous amp rating of the wire is potentially very dangerous.
For example a 16 amp evse should be ran on a 20 amp circuit that is wired with 12 gauge wire.
If a 16 amp evse is plugged into a 15 amp circuit ran on 14 gauge wire it may not trip breaker and the wire would become quite warm. When a 14 gauge wire is confined inside a fixed wall running 16 amps with cellulose blown in house insulation all around it it will become very hot and potential exceed 60 degrees Celsius, which is the temp rating of the insulation on about 97% of house wiring.

This is why the basic evse only draws 12 amps in the US. They are assuming you have 14 gauge wiring. A very safe assumption.
(A 14 gauge circuit can only handle 12 amps continuously)

According to the NEC "continuous" can mean anything from 20 minutes to 3 hours or more depending on the application. So charging an electric vehicle is on the absolute high end of what they call "continous".

Personally I have over breakered 6 gauge 60 amp and 4 gauge 125 amp circuits in my garage. They are for welders and plasma cutters but will work fine for a little 16 amp evse.

The problem with apartments and charging electric vehicles is the only dedicated circuits are going to be in the kitchen and bathroom.
If there are any outside receptacles they should be on their own circuit and have gfi, but they are not required to provide outside receptacles.
Chances are if you run an extension cord out the window is that cord is going to plugged into a room circuit that has up to a dozen other receptacles on it and who knows what else could be on that circuit plugged into one of those receptacles.
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WetEV
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Re: Idea for apartment dwellers: 'host' charging through window

Mon Feb 04, 2019 9:34 am

Quothmar wrote:If not by host charging, how would you say that we should get apartment complexes to make it practical for residents to own electric vehicles?
Installing EVSEs in the parking areas for residents only. L2 240V/208V, hourly limit, dual cord units would probably be best. One for every N units, with N being perhaps 5, more or less. 4 hour limit during the day, perhaps 8 hours or a bit more overnight.

Or in more expensive apartments, for a unit only, perhaps in a garage, perhaps with a separate rental agreement.

And/or charging at work.

A problem that will need to be solved once the percentage of EVs gets up to near 50%.
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LeftieBiker
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Re: Idea for apartment dwellers: 'host' charging through window

Mon Feb 04, 2019 12:25 pm

When you say it's 'dangerous', it makes me wonder how that should be defined. There is, obviously, the danger that gas fumes have on pedestrians and on the ozone layer, and then as you mention there's the danger of a fire if circuits are overloaded. What if the danger of a fire occurs with something like 0.001% probability? I don't know enough about electricity to calculate the figures, but I think some kind of cost-benefit analysis would weigh in.
Indeed. The likelihood of a fire in an overloaded circuit goes up over time, but can be high in Minute One if the wiring is old and/or in poor condition. This is NOT something you want to ignore or shrug off. Just running a circuit at 100% of capacity for many hours is risky. Running it over that is like smoking with a gas leak in the house and one window cracked open.
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Re: Idea for apartment dwellers: 'host' charging through window

Mon Feb 04, 2019 2:31 pm

As a landlord I would not allow extension cords (EV or otherwise) hanging out of windows or crossing common areas for more than a few days.
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Oilpan4
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Re: Idea for apartment dwellers: 'host' charging through window

Mon Feb 04, 2019 5:19 pm

Yeah in my rental house I installed an L14-30 receptacle.
It's part of my personal charging network.

I did a test just to see what would happen. I took my 14 gauge 240v spot welder SJ cable extension cord and plugged in the 16 amp evse just to see what would happen.

For the first 20 minutes nothing seemed to happen the cord barely warmed up. But after an hour it was pretty warm, then after 2 hours it was hitting 125F according to my flir i7 camera.
If that 14 gauge wire had been inside a wall covered with insulation it would have gotten much hotter.
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Quothmar
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Re: Idea for apartment dwellers: 'host' charging through window

Wed Feb 06, 2019 5:02 am

LeftieBiker wrote:Indeed. The likelihood of a fire in an overloaded circuit goes up over time, but can be high in Minute One if the wiring is old and/or in poor condition. This is NOT something you want to ignore or shrug off. Just running a circuit at 100% of capacity for many hours is risky. Running it over that is like smoking with a gas leak in the house and one window cracked open.
Are you suggesting it's a bad idea for an apartment-dweller with 14 gauge wire to trickle-charge even one car from a room circuit?

LeftieBiker
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Re: Idea for apartment dwellers: 'host' charging through window

Wed Feb 06, 2019 5:09 am

Quothmar wrote:
LeftieBiker wrote:Indeed. The likelihood of a fire in an overloaded circuit goes up over time, but can be high in Minute One if the wiring is old and/or in poor condition. This is NOT something you want to ignore or shrug off. Just running a circuit at 100% of capacity for many hours is risky. Running it over that is like smoking with a gas leak in the house and one window cracked open.
Are you suggesting it's a bad idea for an apartment-dweller with 14 gauge wire to trickle-charge even one car from a room circuit?
That depends on the condition of the wiring and the size of the load. A typical 12 amp EVSE (charging cable or station) can safely charge on a 15 amp circuit with 14 gauge wires, IF there are no other significant loads, and IF there are no weak or worn connections. Worn or low quality outlets are a major source of problems like fires, so it's a good idea to use a new, commercial grade outlet.
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Oilpan4
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Re: Idea for apartment dwellers: 'host' charging through window

Wed Feb 06, 2019 6:57 am

Virtually no one wires up room outlets for continuous high amp use.
Oh and if some amateur wired the receptacles with the "back stab" method there will be a fire.
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