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Re: Meeting with Nissan, Phoenix, Jan 8, 2013 Breakfast

Posted: Fri Dec 28, 2012 5:54 pm
by LEAFfan
So Tom, which do you believe? I'm going with the new manual.

Re: Meeting with Nissan, Phoenix, Jan 8, 2013 Breakfast

Posted: Fri Dec 28, 2012 6:25 pm
by TomT
I believe what Andy said in his FAQ... Once a day. I would expect it to be the most up to date info... Of course, I'd maim to just be ABLE to QC more than once a day around here so it is moot to me! :lol:
LEAFfan wrote:So Tom, which do you believe? I'm going with the new manual.

Re: Meeting with Nissan, Phoenix, Jan 8, 2013 Breakfast

Posted: Fri Dec 28, 2012 6:40 pm
by TonyWilliams
Why don't we leave this thread for the actual event?

Also, it would be wise to post SPECIFIC questions you want answered. Naturally, not every question may get responded to, or it may be changed into a different question.

I'd like to see Phoenix area Nissan dealers involved, and of course, the Arizona LEAFers, past, present and future.

I hadn't thought of driving the Rav4. It's 373 miles door to door. I could leave Sunday and arrive in Yuma Sunday night, and leave Yuma early Monday to arrive Monday evening in Scottsdale:

120 miles - Imperial, CA (two hours 40 amp charging needed on RV Park NEMA 14-50)
60 miles - Yuma, AZ (overnight, full range charge on any charger)

180 miles - subtotal, 3 hours travel, 2 hours charging during dinner Imperial, 5 hours total time


120 miles - Gila Bend, AZ (three hours 40 amp charging needed on RV Park NEMA 14-50)
80 miles - 6850 E. Main Street, Scottsdale, AZ

200 miles - subtotal, 3.5 hours travel, 3 hours charging during lunch, 6.5 hours total time


TOTALS each way - 380 miles, 11 hours enroute, 5 hours enroute charging, 6.5 driving at 60mph average

Re: Meeting with Nissan, Phoenix, Jan 8, 2013 Breakfast

Posted: Fri Dec 28, 2012 7:53 pm
by TEG
Well, I see that "Ingineer" Phil is "on board" now.

Phil, will you use the propane range extender to drive your LEAF out there?
The Phoenix folks might get a kick out of seeing it.

Re: Meeting with Nissan, Phoenix, Jan 8, 2013 Breakfast

Posted: Fri Dec 28, 2012 8:00 pm
by TEG
We think that heat ages the battery more than with mild climates.

Assuming we get acknowledgement that it is heat (not driving habits or other factors) that causes the wear, can it be isolated further? :

Does a hot pack degenerate on its' own even if the car is just parked?
Or is the 'real' accelerated wear happening when charging and/or driving?

Also, can we get more detail on how SoC affects this?
I think we suspect strongly that leaving the pack at 100% SoC for long periods of time in hot weather is bad for it. But is 80% much better? What about 60% or even 40%? I think there is some sense that giving out that sort of data could:
#1: Admit too strongly that there is an 'issue' to contend with.
#2: Confuse people that don't want to think so technically about their car and its' battery.

But I think we are past that point. If Nissan continues to lease & sell LEAFs in areas like Phoenix and doesn't add active thermal pack management, then I think we need to get more specific and more clear as to "best practices" for prolonging pack life as much as possible.

Is doing QC when the pack is already hot really bad? Would it make sense to advise people in very hot areas to not use QC at all? I think Nissan probably (desperately) wants to have one set of instructions for LEAF owners everywhere, but it sounds like they may need to provide "special instructions" in certain areas.

Re: Meeting with Nissan, Phoenix, Jan 8, 2013 Breakfast

Posted: Fri Dec 28, 2012 8:06 pm
by hill
LEAFfan wrote: A CHAdeMO quick charger may be available.
On the back of a diesel truck hauling a diesel generator? . . . or a real one. As for chademo - I hope someone has the cojones to ask why corporate Nissan located next to Irvine spectrum (one of the high tech capitols of the nation) doesn't have a QC. Talk about fail. OOpppps no ... don't talk about fail. don't wana hurt any feelings. I'm sure they have TONS of great reasons for NOT getting on the ball w/ QC in So. Cal. That's what really matters ... having tons of great reasons ...
;)

Re: Meeting with Nissan, Phoenix, Jan 8, 2013 Breakfast

Posted: Fri Dec 28, 2012 8:38 pm
by Volusiano
TonyWilliams wrote:Why don't we leave this thread for the actual event?
Also, it would be wise to post SPECIFIC questions you want answered. Naturally, not every question may get responded to, or it may be changed into a different question.
I was wondering why this thread was posted, other than to announce the meeting.

If it's to collect questions in advanced for answers, here are some of mine:

Logistical:

1. Do I need to sign up or reserve a spot? If yes, how? Are seats limited? Is there a sign-up cost to cover the breakfast?
2. How long will it be? What format will it be?

Questions for the panel:

1. The obvious battery replacement pricing question.

2. I'd like to know if Nissan would consider providing a 10 bar warranty (instead of 9 bar warranty) for 2011 and 2012 owners because the advertised degradation is 80% in 5 years. So why would Nissan not back up this claim with a 10 bar warranty?

3. I'd like to know if Nissan would consider a different/better battery capacity remedy/warranty for hot climate states like AZ and TX because it's been established that hot climate states have caused a much more pronounced effect on the battery, hence special treatment for hot climate owners seems justified. Perhaps some kind of time scale warranty, like 12 bars for first year, 11 bars for 2nd year, 10 bars for remaining 3 years, etc.

4. I'm pursuing a buyback request with Nissan. If I'm not happy with the 9 bar warranty, will Nissan still consider my buyback request?

5. I would like to know in more details what are the conditions attached to the battery capacity warranty? Specifically what condition will invalidate the warranty?

6. Will Nissan update the LEAF firmware that will affect the battery capacity bar reading to their advantage? Why not base the battery on KWH capacity instead of capacity bars, which may not at all accurate per Andy Palmer's statement a while back about instrumentation accuracy problem?

7. I would like to know if there's going to be an option to pay more for a fresher battery as opposed to just have Nissan replace an 8 bar battery with a 9 bar battery?

8. What are the long term remedies for Nissan's current battery capacity issue? Will TMS be in a future Nissan EV model? Or a heat-resistant battery chemistry?

9. Will Nissan consider offering a future battery replacement program for a future (discounted) price? Similar to what Tesla is offering on their model S?

10. Does Nissan have any plan in the future to provide a battery replacement program for the LEAF when newer, cheaper, more advanced battery chemistry comes to the market? This is in light of a statement from Andy Palmer in the first video interview with Chelsea where he said that the thought of replacement LEAF battery with new ones years down the road had never entered his mind.

Re: Meeting with Nissan, Phoenix, Jan 8, 2013 Breakfast

Posted: Fri Dec 28, 2012 9:38 pm
by DoxyLover
Here is the big question: what would disqualify you from receiving the benefit of this new warranty?

I read the "don't keep a high charge", "no multiple QC", etc. from the FAQ as simply advise for maintaining your battery. I don't dead these as qualifiers on the warranty. We need this clarified.

Re: Meeting with Nissan, Phoenix, Jan 8, 2013 Breakfast

Posted: Sat Dec 29, 2012 8:47 am
by EVDrive
Customers have to understand what 8 bars mean... as a percentage compared to a new 100% capacity battery. Bars are not standard and uniform in their current form. They also should explain the details of the upgraded capacity measurement system that is represented in bars which is in development and will fix the instrumentation issues for 2011 and 2012 Leafs. A better understanding of the bars will define what exactly this new warranty means. While they are rolling out the upgraded capacity measurement software, will they add in a % state of charge or something like that to 2011 and 2012 Leafs as well?

+1 on the question around charging to 100% and how that will effect the warranty.

Do they plan to release updated data on how heat and charging habits effect battery capacity now that we have 2 years real world data?

As we all loose capacity Quick Charging will become more important. What is the status of Nissan's plan to deploy quick charges which have thus far failed to launch in most markets (or which are small and totally unreliable in areas like the bay area)?

Does Nissan plan to offer larger capacity packs when we choose to or need to buy a new pack as the battery technology improves?

Re: Meeting with Nissan, Phoenix, Jan 8, 2013 Breakfast

Posted: Sat Dec 29, 2012 9:07 am
by leafkabob
I would be interested in clarification from Nissan as to what statistics they are able to obtain from Carwings. I found it odd that Andy Palmer suggested we all read the Plug-In America battery poll results, emphasizing that it covered 240 cars when I would have thought that Nissan has much more complete and accurate statistics already. Perhaps this is something they won't disclose.