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TonyWilliams
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Re: Update on Battery Warranty Enhancement for 2011 & 2012 L

Mon Aug 26, 2013 12:29 am

TimLee wrote:... Just like some of those early $10,000 plasma TVs had major deficiencies and experienced burn-in problems, we now know the 2011 / 2012 LEAF battery is first generation chemistry, 2013 is a bit better second generation chemistry, and 2014 (at least at some point in 2014 cycle) will be markedly improved much more heat tolerant chemistry.
We actually don't exactly know that the 2014 "Hot Battery" will in fact be "markedly improved". Yes, that's what they are saying today. But, the problem for me is that they have made a lot of statements in the past that didn't quite turn out to be accurate.

My point is that I'm confident that they ARE feverishly working on that better battery, however it sure took a lot of hammer hits to their respective heads to get the message that things wouldn't work out with the previous plan. The handwriting was on the wall for a LOOOOOoooooong time.

It was so painfully obvious that the gig was up last summer, that Mark Perry was telling folks that the battery would degrade quickly in heat when his boss was telling the press that it was all the "instruments" and the battery was fine.

So, I hope for the best. The Nissan LEAF is just too important to the EV movement to hope otherwise.

*******************************

2009 - Tesla CEO Elon Musk, well before LEAF was released for sale rips on Nissan's battery technology, and says it's "primitive" without a temperature management system.

January 25, 2010 Autoblog: "Is the Nissan LEAF Battery Pack under Engineered?".

From battery expert Charles Whalen:
"the LiMn2O4 chemistry, that both GM and Nissan are using in the Volt and Leaf, being the most heat sensitive and having the shortest life at higher ambients).... it is the combination of: a) the high ambients in hot climates like Phoenix and South Florida, b) the exponential nature of this Arrhenius function relating lithium battery life to temperature (where battery life roughly doubles for about every 25 degrees F reduction in temperature), and c) the high current cost of lithium batteries [$625/kWh for the Volt ($10,000/16kWh) and $750/kWh for the Leaf ($18,000/24kWh)], … that makes a liquid-cooled, water-chilled, active thermal management system economically advantageous and viable ***FOR AN EV THAT WILL SPEND ITS LIFE IN A HOT CLIMATE***."

A recent study by Pikes Research with U.S. Department of Energy data shows, lithium ion batteries (like those in the LEAF) exposed to hotter average temperatures lose their ability to store energy; the hotter the temperature the faster they lose their storing ability. So BEV owners in Phoenix will likely be looking to replace their batteries faster than owners living where the thermometer doesn’t often reach 110°F.

Thermal management of lithium-ion battery systems is critical to the success of all-electric vehicles because extreme temperatures can affect performance, reliability, safety and durability,” says a Ford press release.

“Extreme temperatures impact a battery’s life and performance, making it crucial to have an effective cooling and heating system to regulate temperature for these demanding applications,” said Anand Sankaran, Ford executive technical leader, Energy Storage and HV Systems.

November 2011 - the first known Nissan LEAF had it's battery pack replaced.

April 2012 - another Phoenix area LEAF driver reported the same issues.

August 3, 2012 - Mark Perry, Director of Product Planning for Nissan North America. On August 3, 2012, he was reported to have said, "We've also been very transparent in making sure people know that battery capacity will degrade in very high heat – for instance, if the cars sit out in 110-degree heat for five hours a day."

September 4, 2012- Andy Palmer, executive vice president of Nissan also dismissed recent reports of battery problems in hot weather for the LEAF. A number of owners in America complained of reduced range during summer, but Palmer says the problem is a faulty battery level display.

"We don't have a battery problem," he says.

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TomT
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Re: Update on Battery Warranty Enhancement for 2011 & 2012 L

Mon Aug 26, 2013 7:14 am

I forgot to mention one item that may be of interest to some: The P3227 update. We were told that the tolerance prior to the update was plus or minus 10 percent... After the update it is now plus 0 and minus 4 percent.
Leaf SL 2011 to 2016, Volt Premier 2016 to 2019, and now:
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thankyouOB
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Re: Update on Battery Warranty Enhancement for 2011 & 2012 L

Mon Aug 26, 2013 7:35 am

I am glad the meeting was so cordial and friendly, but nissan still owes owners a battery price.
they promised last year and again this year.
they promised owners when they bought the car and the battery.

the survey nissan cites is bogus. nissan lumps buyers with leasees in making a judgment about this.
that isnt even mildly accurate or fair. it is sloppy work and marketing research.
owners bought the car and the battery. leasees never buy the car and dont own their battery, either. they already have told nissan that they dont like or cant pay the price of the car.

let's get real here and do what is right for the owners and for resale value. how many of the 25k LEAFS that are being driven were sales and not leases? about 7k? make it right for those of us who want to keep our LEAFS!

-how do you sell a car with a permanent battery lease?
-where is the Q&A also promised months ago?
-where is the post on the meeting from nissan. the meeting was two days ago?
Last edited by thankyouOB on Mon Aug 26, 2013 7:43 am, edited 1 time in total.
may reserve/delivery 4/30/11
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mwalsh
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Re: Update on Battery Warranty Enhancement for 2011 & 2012 L

Mon Aug 26, 2013 7:39 am

^ I don't think you can expect an official response to a meeting that was away from corporate HQ; ran late on a Saturday night; in a location where communication was apparently spotty (maybe chosen for that reason? Where's my foil hat?). I think we'll hear something this week.
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thankyouOB
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Re: Update on Battery Warranty Enhancement for 2011 & 2012 L

Mon Aug 26, 2013 7:46 am

mwalsh wrote:^ I don't think you can expect an official response to a meeting that was away from corporate HQ; ran late on a Saturday night; in a location where communication was apparently spotty (maybe chosen for that reason? Where's my foil hat?). I think we'll hear something this week.
thanks mike.
but are we really saying that nissan doesnt have the ability to post something that says: we will have our report up on
Tuesday?
i am looking for some courtesy and communication, instead of the usual blank wall and bait-and-switch, which is what the SYB program is.

this is about restoring faith with the early adopters who bought the car and want fairness with regard to the battery replacement program.
Last edited by thankyouOB on Mon Aug 26, 2013 7:58 am, edited 1 time in total.
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KJD
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Re: Update on Battery Warranty Enhancement for 2011 & 2012 L

Mon Aug 26, 2013 7:52 am

BBrockman wrote:I'm still here, and do plan to provide some updates on a number of topics from the information discussed this evening.
Still waiting, Still looking forward to your update.
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TaylorSFGuy
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Re: Update on Battery Warranty Enhancement for 2011 & 2012 L

Mon Aug 26, 2013 8:14 am

KJD wrote:
BBrockman wrote:I'm still here, and do plan to provide some updates on a number of topics from the information discussed this evening.
Still waiting, Still looking forward to your update.
I wouldn't worry about the price/method of battery replacement until you actually need one. The market will decide if the rental model will be accepted.

I will see what my options are when the time actually comes for me to get a battery and have decided to not worry about that until I need to. Too many things not worked out at this point.
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Re: Update on Battery Warranty Enhancement for 2011 & 2012 L

Mon Aug 26, 2013 8:20 am

+1
TaylorSFGuy wrote:I wouldn't worry about the price/method of battery replacement until you actually need one. The market will decide if the rental model will be accepted.
I will see what my options are when the time actually comes for me to get a battery and have decided to not worry about that until I need to. Too many things not worked out at this point.
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shrink
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Re: Update on Battery Warranty Enhancement for 2011 & 2012 L

Mon Aug 26, 2013 8:29 am

thankyouOB wrote: but are we really saying that nissan doesnt have the ability to post something that says: we will have our report up on
Tuesday?
i am looking for some courtesy and communication, instead of the usual blank wall and bait-and-switch, which is what the SYB program is.

this is about restoring faith with the early adopters who bought the car and want fairness with regard to the battery replacement program.
Your act is getting really old. If you want to know what was said at the meeting so badly, why did you decline your invitation to attend? You were the first person invited!

There may or may not be a formal statement from Nissan. They are in the middle of a month long Nissan 360 worldwide event and you expect them to post to this message board to satisfy your demands?

You have no right to complain. You had your chance to meet these guys in person in a very small setting to express your concerns and ask your questions. You were the first invitee and you declined.

I was personally very grateful for the chance to attend and enjoyed the evening. Nissan is trying and listening. We might not like what they have to say or how long it takes to say it, but I give them a lot of credit. The VP of a major global automaker took the time to meet with a small group of concerned owners face to face - and I repeat, thankyouob was the first invitee and he declined.

So stop complaining. They reached out to you personally and you turned them down. Now you're posting here demanding answers you could have asked them yourself? Why didn't you man up and ask them yourself?

I would also like to point out you were personally invited after a one-to-one with Chelsea and you still declined. You were probably the only one personally invited - the rest of us was likely via email.

You simply have no right to make accusations about "courtesy and communication."
2011 LEAF (Sold) | 2012 Volt (Sold) | 2012 LEAF (Lease Ended) | 2010 Tesla Roadster #501 | 2013 Tesla Model S #9001 | 6.827 kW SunPower PV System

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DaveEV
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Re: Update on Battery Warranty Enhancement for 2011 & 2012 L

Mon Aug 26, 2013 8:32 am

TaylorSFGuy wrote:I wouldn't worry about the price/method of battery replacement until you actually need one. The market will decide if the rental model will be accepted.

I will see what my options are when the time actually comes for me to get a battery and have decided to not worry about that until I need to. Too many things not worked out at this point.
Good strategy - how's yours been holding up? Are you still able to make your commute without charging or do you have to top up along the way?

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