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Re: Update on Battery Warranty Enhancement for 2011 & 2012 L

Posted: Tue Aug 27, 2013 3:29 am
by JPWhite
LEAFfan wrote:
No, they said there will be no improvement in range, just better heat protection.
Yes. But if there is less reason to limit charge % in the BMS during high/low temps thanks to better chemistry an average driver will be able to go further in the height of the summer. Part of the range issue in Pheonix was BMS over limiting charge %, part was the battery. If the battery is stronger the BMS can exercise that muscle more. My point is that while no 'new range' will be added the advertised/existing range will be eroded less by high/low temps.

Re: Update on Battery Warranty Enhancement for 2011 & 2012 L

Posted: Tue Aug 27, 2013 3:40 am
by JPWhite
drees wrote: Everywhere else with lower temperatures would truly not have to worry about battery temperatures and premature capacity loss!
Or the price of a new battery :shock:

Re: Update on Battery Warranty Enhancement for 2011 & 2012 L

Posted: Tue Aug 27, 2013 4:36 am
by RegGuheert
drees wrote:Everywhere else with lower temperatures would truly not have to worry about battery temperatures and premature capacity loss!
Let's not assume that everyone has the same application for their LEAF, please. For those of us who put low miles on our LEAFs, this is simply not true. In order to get the same number of miles out of our vehicles as others do, we need for the batteries to last for a very long time. In other words, calendar losses are very important for many of us who don't drive a lot.

Re: Update on Battery Warranty Enhancement for 2011 & 2012 L

Posted: Tue Aug 27, 2013 7:08 am
by DaveEV
RegGuheert wrote:
drees wrote:Everywhere else with lower temperatures would truly not have to worry about battery temperatures and premature capacity loss!
Let's not assume that everyone has the same application for their LEAF, please. For those of us who put low miles on our LEAFs, this is simply not true. In order to get the same number of miles out of our vehicles as others do, we need for the batteries to last for a very long time. In other words, calendar losses are very important for many of us who don't drive a lot.
Reg, I think we are in violent agreement here. :)

Re: Update on Battery Warranty Enhancement for 2011 & 2012 L

Posted: Tue Aug 27, 2013 7:35 am
by TonyWilliams
shrink wrote:There was a claim that a car "Better than the Model S" was in development.
That's quite a jump from an Infiniti LE with a LEAF's 24kWh fast degrading battery and even more pathetically short range !!! (the car that I called the Nissan-Slow-Train-Wreck(TM))

Since we know Nissan folks read this, let me make a few suggestions:

1. Build an Infiniti G37 type EV that can be a sedan/saloon car, a coupe or a convertible. This is not currently offered by Tesla, and doesn't appear to be on their short term radar. My wife doesn't want to give up her Infiniti G37 convertible for a Tesla anything!!!

2. Don't try and compete head to head with Tesla Model S or X, and future Model E; I think you'll lose. The good news is any other EV competition is still mostly clueless, catering to increasing CARB-ZEV demands with minimum efforts and performance. I believe they will remain clueless for the next 5 to 10 years, so there is that going for you. Plus, the Model S will get better, so you're shooting at a moving target. I believe they will have a 2.9 second 0-60mph Model S car with all wheel drive in 3-4 years, that will go 350 miles and can be driven coast to coast easily. Good luck.

3. If you think the Nissan battery games from the LEAF won't haunt you, guess again. The consumer already knows that Tesla batteries will survive heat, and a future G37 battery would have only talk... the same talk that we heard last summer about the LEAF battery not being affected by heat and rapid degradation. Good luck there.

4. Any competitor to the Tesla products must have a robust quick recharging / battery swapping capability. My advice; buy into the Tesla Supercharger network. I will gladly pay the $1500 - $2500 for "free for life" recharging that I can use anywhere in North America. If you think I want to go to a Nissan / Infiniti dealer for a charge, guess again. I don't want to beg for a fob, ask permission, fight with for-sale ICE cars in the spots, not open 24 hours, and don't want a leering salesman around. That's the current Nissan CHAdeMO model in the USA.

5. There is no reason Nissan can't build a better mouse trap, but the committee process of Nissan is not a match for a driven, ambitious, make-it-happen, autocratic guy like Elon Musk. He will eventually move on to other things, but I recommend finding that guy in your company and putting him in charge of that future car, with a budget to make it happen.

Re: Update on Battery Warranty Enhancement for 2011 & 2012 L

Posted: Tue Aug 27, 2013 7:51 am
by edatoakrun
Still catching up, having returned from my most enyoyable long-range BEV trip so far, a four day ~630 mile SF Bay area, Santa Cruze, Clear Lake tour, late Sunday night.

The good news? I finally lost my first capacity bar the morning after the Vacaville DC charge, at ~20,700 miles.
And still my LEAF still shows no significant loss of range, but I'll post more on that on an appropriate thread.

A LEAF specific comment:
BBrockman:

Battery replacement program:

...Q. Why is there no outright price for a swap?

A. There are two main reasons we decided against releasing an outright battery price: 1. Customer research steered us a different direction; and 2. the evolving costs of batteries over time make it impractical to do so.

Weighing feedback from current and potential owners, we found that most favored a monthly payment approach and wanted to have ongoing assurance on the health of the battery. This approach provides the best balance of cost to the owner and increased receptivity among potential future buyers...
Mr Brockman:

Could you please state simply and succinctly that Nissan intends to fulfill the legal obligations of my LEAF purchase contract and sell me a battery when I want one?

A more general question about the future of BEVs:
BBrockman

...Currently, we have almost completed testing of a new battery chemistry intended to substantially slow capacity loss in extreme heat. During constant testing at battery temperatures of 45 C/113 F, the new battery chemistry is performing similar to the manner that the current battery performs in temperate areas like San Francisco or Seattle...
If true, then isn't every BEV/PHEV with an ATM battery cooling system now functionally obsolete?

What do the "I will never buy a BEV without ATM", and "The LEAF would be a great car, if it only had ATM" party members have to say in response?

Re: Update on Battery Warranty Enhancement for 2011 & 2012 L

Posted: Tue Aug 27, 2013 7:57 am
by TomT
15% and 6.25%. It was actually kind of funny because I was talking to Billy or Erik afterwards (I forget whom now - too many side conversations), and they didn't know that the values had ever been listed in the Service Manual (it was only in the 2010 release)...
shrink wrote:1. Andy mentioned the values of each capacity bar and stated the first one does indeed represent 15% capacity loss, with each subsequent one representing about 6% (I can't remember the exact number from that old service manual, but it is correct).

Re: Update on Battery Warranty Enhancement for 2011 & 2012 L

Posted: Tue Aug 27, 2013 7:58 am
by Stanton
phxsmiley wrote: - #7 Above: I thought I'd ask Brian about the OK/Cancel button, to see if we can get that pushed back into the 2011/12 Leafs. He wouldn't commit to that, but did explain that the head unit was different in the 2013, so the software didn't easily port to the older Leafs.
Why can't a large company--with a lot of resources--do something as simple as port this feature into the 2011/2012 models? There is a HUGE--and I mean HUGE--difference between pressing "OK" EVERY TIME you start the car and once a month.

Don't get me wrong, I'm very happy to see movement on the battery pack issues (since I'll probably be one of those getting a new "hot pack" battery in a couple of years), but you'd think they could put a few more resources on the (original) #1 complaint among Leaf drivers.

Re: Update on Battery Warranty Enhancement for 2011 & 2012 L

Posted: Tue Aug 27, 2013 8:02 am
by TomT
And a much larger pack, much better styling, much higher performance, and all the better tech the S has... Tesla is also not going to be standing still in the interim so I think Nissan's goal of an S fighter might be harder to obtain than they realize...
drees wrote:Combine the two and you might have a Model S fighter, though you're going to need something faster than 50 kW CHAdeMO to compete...

Re: Update on Battery Warranty Enhancement for 2011 & 2012 L

Posted: Tue Aug 27, 2013 8:03 am
by smkettner
shrink wrote:3. There was a claim that a car "Better than the Model S" was in development.
Better range?
Better acceleration?
Better economy?
Better in the crash test?
Better battery longevity?
Better handling?
Better interior?
Better cool factor?
Better charging?

All of the above? It will be many high bars to hurdle.