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JeremyW
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Delivery Date: 23 Jun 2012
Leaf Number: 19136
Location: San Gabriel, CA

Re: Update on Battery Warranty Enhancement for 2011 & 2012 L

Sun Jun 09, 2013 8:30 am

Does this update in any way affect how many quick charges the car is able to do in a day? Is there any change to the temperature gauge? From what I've been reading the '13s seem to show more temperature bars at a given temp than a 11 or 12.

Also, does quick charging more than once a day (or some other threshold) affect the warranty? If I were to quick charge 6+ times in a day and nearly cook the pack, would that count as customer abuse and void the warranty, even though the car will let you quick charge so often?

I have quick charged nearly 75 times since I got the car a year ago.
Former 2012 SL leasee 6/23/12 - 9/23/15
Former Fit EV leasee.
Now driving Spark EV and Model 3.

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EVDRIVER
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Re: Update on Battery Warranty Enhancement for 2011 & 2012 L

Sun Jun 09, 2013 8:42 am

JeremyW wrote:Does this update in any way affect how many quick charges the car is able to do in a day? Is there any change to the temperature gauge? From what I've been reading the '13s seem to show more temperature bars at a given temp than a 11 or 12.

Also, does quick charging more than once a day (or some other threshold) affect the warranty? If I were to quick charge 6+ times in a day and nearly cook the pack, would that count as customer abuse and void the warranty, even though the car will let you quick charge so often?

I have quick charged nearly 75 times since I got the car a year ago.
As long as you don't use QC over 70 times it won't void the warranty. :D

ERG4ALL
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Leaf Number: 000404
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Re: Update on Battery Warranty Enhancement for 2011 & 2012 L

Sun Jun 09, 2013 8:48 am

The thought strikes me that with all of the concern by LEAF owners of the battery warranty and capacity degradation, which IMHO is justified, I wonder if this will slow down the introduction of the next generation of batteries? Nissan may have backed into a buzz saw and will have to be extra careful in the future to avoid any backlash from advertising promises not being kept in the real world.
Reserved 4/20/10, Ocean Blue Ordered SL 9/30/10, ESVE Installed 11/22/10, Delivered March 8th, 2011.

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TonyWilliams
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Re: Update on Battery Warranty Enhancement for 2011 & 2012 L

Sun Jun 09, 2013 9:19 am

usadiamond wrote:This warranty just sounds offensive to me. A leaf with 9 bars or less is no better than a golf cart. First, false advertisement about 100 mile range BS and now warranty to guarantee 49 mile range?! I'd rather Nissan to be straight up and just tell the 1st gen Leaf owners to suck it up and prepare for their cars to run useless in a few years.
I still have all 12 bars, but only get about 60 mile range down from 80 after less than two years. #nissandisappointing
Since you seem to be cross posting from Facebook, I'll repost here:

Well, I feel like a long, hard fought battle has provided something concrete that the LEAF community didn't have previously, and would not have gotten without some serious pushback. I doubt Nissan will ever use the "everything is normal" line again, but instead rightly reference the warranty.

I also doubt that the naysayers amongst the LEAF community will attack fellow advocates with such disregard concerning battery degradation.

I personally, amongst others, received some pretty vile attacks from well known folks in this very community, both LEAF and greater EV community. I won't ever forget.

This warranty is a positive step toward a future where consumers understand the limitations of this EV, and are protected at about 70% of capacity. Now I want Nissan to warn consumers at the sale point what heat AND cold will do to range.

mksE55
Posts: 176
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Leaf Number: 5086
Location: Tyler TX

Re: Update on Battery Warranty Enhancement for 2011 & 2012 L

Sun Jun 09, 2013 9:25 am

TonyWilliams wrote:
usadiamond wrote:This warranty just sounds offensive to me. A leaf with 9 bars or less is no better than a golf cart. First, false advertisement about 100 mile range BS and now warranty to guarantee 49 mile range?! I'd rather Nissan to be straight up and just tell the 1st gen Leaf owners to suck it up and prepare for their cars to run useless in a few years.
I still have all 12 bars, but only get about 60 mile range down from 80 after less than two years. #nissandisappointing
Since you seem to be cross posting from Facebook, I'll repost here:

Well, I feel like a long, hard fought battle has provided something concrete that the LEAF community didn't have previously, and would not have gotten without some serious pushback. I doubt Nissan will ever use the "everything is normal" line again, but instead rightly reference the warranty.

I also doubt that the naysayers amongst the LEAF community will attack fellow advocates with such disregard concerning battery degradation.

I personally, amongst others, received some pretty vile attacks from well known folks in this very community, both LEAF and greater EV community. I won't ever forget.

This warranty is a positive step toward a future where consumers understand the limitations of this EV, and are protected at about 70% of capacity. Now I want Nissan to warn consumers at the sale point what heat AND cold will do to range.

all good points. I wish I knew now , What I didnt know back then. +1
Bye Bye Exxon , Shell, Mobil
* 2011 SL
3 bar loss 23,000 mi
in less than 2 yrs
4/14 now 4 bar loss 32,000 just over 2 years

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TonyWilliams
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Re: Update on Battery Warranty Enhancement for 2011 & 2012 L

Sun Jun 09, 2013 9:29 am

LEAFfan wrote:
mwalsh wrote:Here is something that is bothering me - I am down to ~220 Gids on a charge. With the accepted threshold for bar loss being ~232 Gids, technically I should have lost a bar some time ago. Yet I still have all twelve. What is up with that?
First of all, I don't see where you believe that 232 Gids is the 'accepted' threshold for first bar loss. The % Gids is usually around 80-81%/225-227 Gids for first bar loss, not 83%/232 Gids. I've tested many cars and every one was around 80-81% Gids when they lost their first bar. Your car will lose one soon as yours is the first I've seen to be in the 70s % and still have all 12 CBs. So I'm going to call your car an Outlier.
It appears that the "threshold" to lose the first capacity bar is 55.25 ah. You can use the Turbo3 Android app and Bluetooth OBDII adapter to view that info.


The only known threshold for Gids is Low Battery Warning (LBW = 49 Gid) and Very Low Battery warning (VLB = 24 Gid). So that folks understand what these numbers represent, each Gid is a value of 80 stored wattHours, so that 50 Gid * 80 wattHours equals 4000 wattHours, or 4kWh stored of the 24kWh rated/advertised capacity battery. When the value falls below that, at 49 Gid, the LBW is displayed. The same is true at VLB; 25 Gid * 80 wattHours = 2000 wattHours, or 2kWh stored. Therefore, at 24 Gid, the dash mileage readout (the "GOM") displays "---" indicating VLB. The kWh stored is not the kWh you have access to, but that's a whole 'nother can of worms.

Turtle threshold is lowest cell pair voltage (around 2.9 volts off the top of my head).

Hope this helps.
Last edited by TonyWilliams on Sun Jun 09, 2013 9:45 am, edited 2 times in total.

downeykp
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Re: Update on Battery Warranty Enhancement for 2011 & 2012 L

Sun Jun 09, 2013 9:38 am

Tony, I for one appreciate the fact that you put your ass and your pocketbook on the line to show Nissan the errors of their ways. I think Nissan underestimated the amount of talent and intellect (of most) here on the forum.
We would not be where we are today without you and the people who helped you with range test.
Mahalo
2011 Black Leaf SL+QC Vin. 1931
Res. 6-14-10 Order 1-25-11
EVSE: Mod'd Ver. 2 Nissan L1
Delivered 5-31-11

9 years 38000mi. 5 bars

39 Suniva panels 10.3kw with Enphase micro inverters my electricity cost $26 a month.

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TonyWilliams
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Re: Update on Battery Warranty Enhancement for 2011 & 2012 L

Sun Jun 09, 2013 10:33 am

downeykp wrote:Tony, I for one appreciate the fact that you put your ass and your pocketbook on the line to show Nissan the errors of their ways. I think Nissan underestimated the amount of talent and intellect (of most) here on the forum.
We would not be where we are today without you and the people who helped you with range test.
Mahalo
I genuinely appreciate that, thanks. Folks might not realize some of the ramifications of what I tried to accomplish. Had Nissan decided to take a different path, they could have held the line that "all was normal" and sued me into oblivion with legal bills. Obviously, they could have guys like Nissan's Craig Pike in Phoenix, who was involved in testing the LEAF at their Casa Grande facility, tell a court how "wrong" I and my fellow LEAF owners were. Nissan could have paid another 100 engineers and scientists to all be singing the same tune.

I would have had to pay expert witnesseses to counter their claims, in addition to the bills for my legal counsel. Heck, Nissan could have thrown out a couple of "experts" from Nissan LEAF enthusiasts groups, some of which would be more than happy to throw me under the bus. They know who they are. Even nationally recognized "plug in" advocates were working behind the scenes to discredit us (with the intention of "defending" EVs). We had other "experts" craft websites and blogs to counter my claims, who I am absolutely positive would have taken the stand with impressive education credentials and equally impressive looking graphs and charts to "prove" me wrong.

Make no mistake; I did fully expect to get sued and yes, I did have robust contingency plans for such an attack. My U.S. Marine Corps training left me with a valuable skill; the best defense is offense.

There are other more serious risks. Somebody could have been injured or killed with their cars intentionally disabled on the side of the freeway during my test. It was strongly suggested to Nissan by a fantastic EV advocate that they allow us to use their private, safe test track. The said no. Cars were damaged during the event, loading them on the tow dollies. That could have cost real money for myself and the other participants.

So, I just want to offer some insight into what myself, and others faced at the time, and what I reasonably expected to be the outcome. Yes, we really were hanging our asses out there, and backed it up with our pocketbooks; probably more than most folks realize.

i surely didn't expect this warranty as an outcome, that's for sure. Or a meeting with Nissan's leadership in Phoenix in January 2013 about these issues. Or Nissan paying almost $3000 to cover all our expenses for the Sept 15, 2012 LEAF range test in Phoenix.

Nissan is pulling itself out of this mess, and perhaps in the only way they can. I absolutely guarantee that they have learned a lot, and that will only make their 2015 LEAF with improved battery that much better. They wisely, in my opinion, skuttled the Infinti LE, and will no doubt refocus their sites on the competion from Tesla's BlueStar Gen III car for a future, far better Infiniti EV product. The future is bright for EV's and I will continue to promote and advocate for all EV's, as well as loudly criticize where I feel things have gone astray. I'm considering launching "EVcritic" this fall.

scottf200
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Re: Update on Battery Warranty Enhancement for 2011 & 2012 L

Sun Jun 09, 2013 10:58 am

TonyWilliams wrote:
downeykp wrote:Tony, I for one appreciate the fact that you put your ass and your pocketbook on the line to show Nissan the errors of their ways. I think Nissan underestimated the amount of talent and intellect (of most) here on the forum.
We would not be where we are today without you and the people who helped you with range test.
Mahalo
I genuinely appreciate that, thanks. Folks might not realize some of the ramifications of what I tried to accomplish. Had Nissan decided to take a different path, they could have held the line that "all was normal" and sued me into oblivion with legal bills. Obviously, they could have guys like Nissan's Craig Pike in Phoenix, who was involved in testing the LEAF at their Casa Grande facility, tell a court how "wrong" I and my fellow LEAF owners were. Nissan could have paid another 100 engineers and scientists to all be singing the same tune.

I would have had to pay expert witnesses to counter their claims, in addition to the bills for my legal counsel. Heck, Nissan could have thrown out a couple of "experts" from Nissan LEAF enthusiasts groups, some of which would be more than happy to throw me under the bus. They know who they are. Even nationally recognized "plug in" advocates were working behind the scenes to discredit us (with the intention of "defending" EVs). We had other "experts" craft websites and blogs to counter my claims, who I am absolutely positive would have taken the stand with impressive education credentials and equally impressive looking graphs and charts to "prove" me wrong.

Make no mistake; I did fully expect to get sued and yes, I did have robust contingency plans for such an attack. My U.S. Marine Corps training left me with a valuable skill; the best defense is offense.

There are other more serious risks. Somebody could have been injured or killed with their cars intentionally disabled on the side of the freeway during my test. It was strongly suggested to Nissan by a fantastic EV advocate that they allow us to use their private, safe test track. The said no. Cars were damaged during the event, loading them on the tow dollies. That could have cost real money for myself and the other participants.

So, I just want to offer some insight into what myself, and others faced at the time, and what I reasonably expected to be the outcome. Yes, we really were hanging our asses out there, and backed it up with our pocketbooks; probably more than most folks realize.

i surely didn't expect this warranty as an outcome, that's for sure. Or a meeting with Nissan's leadership in Phoenix in January 2013 about these issues. Or Nissan paying almost $3000 to cover all our expenses for the Sept 15, 2012 LEAF range test in Phoenix.

Nissan is pulling itself out of this mess, and perhaps in the only way they can. I absolutely guarantee that they have learned a lot, and that will only make their 2015 LEAF with improved battery that much better. They wisely, in my opinion, skuttled the Infinti LE, and will no doubt refocus their sites on the competition from Tesla's BlueStar Gen III car for a future, far better Infiniti EV product. The future is bright for EV's and I will continue to promote and advocate for all EV's, as well as loudly criticize where I feel things have gone astray. I'm considering launching "EVcritic" this fall.
Thanks for sharing that. My hats off for your, the other testers, and vocal folks on this forum efforts on raising this LEAF issue to a level where is simply could not be ignored. In the end there will be a better product and especially for the "masses" that will be buying this car with great long term expectations. [In another weird way all the NYT publicity very likely helped out the supercharger program (distance between and number of them). This stuff can be a blessing in the end once a lot of the immediate pain is over].
100K EV miles and 80% EV usage
'17 Tesla Model X 100D 'used' self | RIP '16 P90DL Sig self |
'18 Tesla Model 3 LR kid1 |
'11 Volt kid2 | '16 Volt for wife | '12 Volt kid1's spouse

MrIanB
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Re: Update on Battery Warranty Enhancement for 2011 & 2012 L

Sun Jun 09, 2013 11:15 am

So if I understand this battery warranty, the replacement pack will have a 9 or so max recharge capacity instead of the original 12 bars? This is like getting a warranty on a tire and they give you a used tire for a replacement rather than a new one. This to me is unacceptable and the Leaf will be going back to Nissan in 21 months and moving on to another maker.

Ian B

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