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Re: Update on Nissan LEAF Battery Replacement

Posted: Thu Dec 13, 2018 5:42 pm
by fotajoye
For those who haven't figured it out by now: The Leaf is a compliance car that Nissan used as a vehicle for Government money; they just built more of them than Toyota or Honda; and, they used U.S. taxpayer money to build EV assembly plants they now use to build ICE cars. They even sold their Battery business built using Federal loans. I can't speak for others but based on their actions to date, I feel they are definitely an opportunistic company with an abysmal record for customer satisfaction.

Re: Update on Nissan LEAF Battery Replacement

Posted: Thu Dec 13, 2018 6:33 pm
by LeftieBiker
Compliance cars are defined as existing ICE cars that are modified to accept EV drivetrains. The Leaf uses some parts from existing vehicles, but isn't a conversion of one. Call it something else with the same definition you give above.

Re: Update on Nissan LEAF Battery Replacement

Posted: Thu Dec 13, 2018 10:31 pm
by SageBrush
LeftieBiker wrote:Compliance cars are defined as existing ICE cars that are modified to accept EV drivetrains. The Leaf uses some parts from existing vehicles, but isn't a conversion of one. Call it something else with the same definition you give above.
There is no definition, there is a handful of loosely agreed upon conventions. Mine is an *EV that leverages tax credits to satisfy CARB but is otherwise a money loser for the manufacturer. It then follows that production numbers are ~ what is required to satisfy CARB.

Re: Update on Nissan LEAF Battery Replacement

Posted: Fri Dec 14, 2018 12:39 am
by cwerdna
SageBrush wrote:
LeftieBiker wrote:Compliance cars are defined as existing ICE cars that are modified to accept EV drivetrains. The Leaf uses some parts from existing vehicles, but isn't a conversion of one. Call it something else with the same definition you give above.
There is no definition, there is a handful of loosely agreed upon conventions. Mine is an *EV that leverages tax credits to satisfy CARB but is otherwise a money loser for the manufacturer. It then follows that production numbers are ~ what is required to satisfy CARB.
And compliance cars are often available (looking at US only) only in California or California + a limited number (as few as one) of CARB emission states. The high end would be all CARB emission states.

An example of the CA-only would be the gen 2 Rav4 EV. Hyundai Ioniq EV is even more rare (in the US) than Rav4 EV was as it's a So Cal only car. Spark EV was CA only then added OR. Fiat 500e is CA and OR only.

In comparison, Leaf is available in virtually every US state including a ton where it earns no CA ZEV credit. And, this doesn't include the many countries outside the US that it's available in w/Japan and Europe combined having more of them than the US.

Re: Update on Nissan LEAF Battery Replacement

Posted: Fri Dec 14, 2018 1:19 am
by LeftieBiker
The RAV-4, Fiat, Spark, all Fit (so to speak) the definition I gave for compliance cars. The Hyundai's availability is a marketing decision for the US (and likely a smart one), not a manufacturing characteristic of the car. (Cars like the Ionic, Golf, etc, that are designed for multiple kinds of powertrain, including electric, are also, IMO, not compliance cars - they are something else.) Or hey, we can all just call cars we don't like "compliance cars" and the ones we do like whatever we wish. Words usually fail when there is no positive intent.

Re: Update on Nissan LEAF Battery Replacement

Posted: Fri Dec 14, 2018 5:55 am
by SageBrush
cwerdna wrote: In comparison, Leaf is available in virtually every US state including a ton where it earns no CA ZEV credit. And, this doesn't include the many countries outside the US that it's available in w/Japan and Europe combined having more of them than the US.
It is easy to identify a compliance car when it is only sold in CARB states but that is not a hard line in the sand. Marketing, PR, and COGS can push the boundaries and then it becomes a judgement call.

I tend to ask myself if the car would be manufactured for the US absent CARB; I consider the level of manufacturer and dealership support, and I look at discounts required to move the car.

An easy case can be made for the LEAF being a compliance car in the US but since the LEAF has substantial sales outside the US that may well be profitable my overall conclusion whether Nissan would produce LEAF if CARB went away is uncertain. I suspect not in the US anyway.

The notion that converted ICE vehicles is a marker of a compliance vehicle is a good rule of thumb since it speaks to manufacturer desire to avoid deep EV R&D. Here the LEAF would be an exception since it most definitely started its life as a non-compliance project. The question is whether it remains so.

Re: Update on Nissan LEAF Battery Replacement

Posted: Fri Dec 14, 2018 10:10 am
by DaveinOlyWA
fotajoye wrote:For those who haven't figured it out by now: The Leaf is a compliance car that Nissan used as a vehicle for Government money; they just built more of them than Toyota or Honda; and, they used U.S. taxpayer money to build EV assembly plants they now use to build ICE cars. They even sold their Battery business built using Federal loans. I can't speak for others but based on their actions to date, I feel they are definitely an opportunistic company with an abysmal record for customer satisfaction.
Interesting view but then again, everyone has one. Nissan built the car assuming the US would do what Japan did by providing an "effective" public charging network to support what was perceived to be a great idea with no downside.

That didn't happen along with Nissan's questionable decision to put out a 24 kwh pack instead of starting with 30 kwh immediately. They had several missteps including no active TMS as an option, no custom charge settings, nor a continuance to push for more public charging, especially at their dealerships.

But they offer the LEAF to dozens of countries which includes nearly all of the US (North Dakota? maybe not...) which immediately eliminates them from the compliance contest.

Considering all that is happening with Nissan now, its becoming clear to me that beyond Ghosn and Palmer, there appears to be a very tough battle over EV decisions both big and small. I guess Nissan is more like Toyota after all.

Re: Update on Nissan LEAF Battery Replacement

Posted: Fri Dec 14, 2018 1:32 pm
by Stanton
DaveinOlyWA wrote: Considering all that is happening with Nissan now, its becoming clear to me that beyond Ghosn and Palmer, there appears to be a very tough battle over EV decisions both big and small. I guess Nissan is more like Toyota after all.
This is the only part that I wonder about now/today; guess we shall see now that both are gone.
However, claiming a car that's sold 300,000+ units world-wide over the last 9 years...and was available in pretty much the entire US (including) Hawaii...is disingenuous. The Leaf put commercially available, mass-produced BEVs on the map.

Re: Update on Nissan LEAF Battery Replacement

Posted: Fri Dec 14, 2018 2:38 pm
by DaveinOlyWA
Stanton wrote:
DaveinOlyWA wrote: Considering all that is happening with Nissan now, its becoming clear to me that beyond Ghosn and Palmer, there appears to be a very tough battle over EV decisions both big and small. I guess Nissan is more like Toyota after all.
This is the only part that I wonder about now/today; guess we shall see now that both are gone.
However, claiming a car that's sold 300,000+ units world-wide over the last 9 years...and was available in pretty much the entire US (including) Hawaii...is disingenuous. The Leaf put commercially available, mass-produced BEVs on the map.
It will likely take some time to see what effect Ghosn's ouster will have on Nissan's future plans and without knowing any of those future plans, we will likely never know. But its definitely starting to appear not everyone at Nissan was completely onboard with Ghosn's vision.

Re: Update on Nissan LEAF Battery Replacement

Posted: Sat Dec 15, 2018 10:31 pm
by johnlocke
Doesn't really matter if the Leaf is a "compliance" car or not. Or if It is sold around the world. The purpose of selling Leafs in the US is to raise the CAFE mileage average so Nissan can sell more expensive SUV's and big pickup trucks with bad gas mileage and much higher profit margins. If Nissan were truly interested in the EV market, they would have spent the time and money to correct the battery issues and made battery upgrades possible. The Leaf has a poor reputation and little resale value because Nissan DOESN'T CARE. They sell Leafs in spite of poor salesmanship and lackluster marketing. Dealers typically have minimal trained staff available and some dealers actually share Leaf trained techs between several stores. Nissan's failure to deliver the 60KWH version so far is just more evidence that EV's are not a market they care about.

That Nissan sells as many Leafs as it does only shows how much pent up demand there is for any EV. Tesla has six months of backorders to fill for a car most haven't even driven. Hyundai and Kia can't keep their EV's in stock. Jaguar has already sold out their next years production of the I-Pace from what I understand. If the Chinese decide to export their EV's, then Nissan is in a world of hurt.