scottf200
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Re: July Plugin Sales : Leaf 395, Volt 1849, PIP 688, FFE ?

Thu Aug 02, 2012 3:35 pm

Ford-sells-38-electric-Focus-cars-in-July-as-EVs-continue-to-be-tough-sell
http://www.detroitnews.com/article/2012 ... tough-sell" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Ford Motor Co. sold 38 electric Ford Focus cars in July — the latest sign of slow EV sales in the United States.
The Dearborn automaker said sales of Focus EVs fell by more than half over the 89 sold in June. In seven months, Ford has sold just 135 Focus EVs — including zero in February, March or April. Ford built 121 Focus EVs in July and now has assembled 884 this year, up from 763 through the end of June. The automaker is only selling the Focus EV in New Jersey, New York and California, but has heavily touted the vehicle.
Last edited by scottf200 on Thu Aug 02, 2012 7:31 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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DANandNAN
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Re: June Plugin Sales : Leaf 535, Volt 1760, PIP 695, FFE 89

Thu Aug 02, 2012 3:58 pm

SanDust wrote:
DANandNAN wrote:1. Lower gas prices don't help sell anything more energy efficient, but that also means the Volt numbers are suffering and would be higher.
1. It's obvious that gas prices effect buying decisions. People overreact. When gas prices shoot up they panic and start looking for more fuel efficient vehicles. If gas prices start moving up again we'll see more interest in Volts and Leafs and the Prius and so forth. We've seen this behavior time and time again.
That's what I said. Lower gas prices don't help sell anything that's more efficient. All efficient vehicles sales suffer, so when someone says "low gas prices hurt Leaf sales" they also hurt Volt, FFE, HFEV, Prius (ect) sales. So the Volt's numbers would have been even higher too. I don't know about the FFE, but I hope it doesn't suffer the same fate the i-MiEV will - they sold 33 of those - again :roll:
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GaslessInSeattle
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Re: June Plugin Sales : Leaf 535, Volt 1760, PIP 695, FFE 89

Thu Aug 02, 2012 4:38 pm

For whatever it's worth, with 20K EV miles under my belt, I'm trying to look at this from the perspective of someone who mostly just wants a car they can drive, rather than someone like me who bought the Leaf for environmental and political reasons. I think we kid ourselves when we try and argue that range is not the main limiting factor. these cars need to perform better than ICE's, which they do, run more economically, which they do, and be essentially range unlimited, which they are not, in order for the masses to be willing to pay more for them, which they will! Price is an issue, but honestly I think it's the excuse people use when what they really mean is they want to see more value. It is not uncommon for folks to fill up a gas car when they reach a quarter tank, people value security very highly. if we can assume that the current 300-400 mile range of an ice is what it takes for people to feel extra secure, I think we need an EV with at least 250 miles of range, allowing plenty of miles on reserve to avoid close calls. for now, that actually would work well for how Li-ion batteries like to be treated. for day to day commuting the pack would be cycled in the middle, and for long trips it would be fully charged but still not run down to empty, but refilled when the "low fuel" indicator shows the reserve has been reached (avoiding using the reserve except when in a pinch). using the inner 65% of a 250 mile pack (idea for li-ion), leaving 37 miles (15%) in "reserve", and charged to 200 miles or 80%, would have a daily commute plus side trip range of roughly 162 miles round trip and cycle the battery perfectly for long life. a pack this size would have lots of buffer for range reduction due to inclimate weather, winter and summer TMS, winter time cabin heating, and long term "gradual" range loss due to pack aging. no matter how much we try and educate people on how the average commuter only drives 30 miles a day, I don't think we can get around what appears to me to be a basic instinct for security. bottom line: the Leaf needs at least double, maybe triple the range it currently has to deliver the kind of security people require. People want a car with enough range that they just don't need to think about it much, for most of the life of the car; they want to drive their car, they don't want their car to drive them.
SanDust wrote:
TomT wrote:I think it is ultimately about both range and price, both for the Leaf and Volt. Electric range in the case of the Leaf, and the fact that the Volt has, for the small size and modest performance of the car, mediocre gas mileage when not electric. And both are expensive in the eyes of the consumer compared to the "competition."
I think it's wrong to think that price and range and MPG are all equally important. They're not. Price is the big driver. You can see that with the Volt. The financing and lease deals are driving the better sales numbers. Price is doing the same thing but in the opposite direction for the Leaf: Nissan raised the price. The CARB rebate was halved. Sales tanked. You know the song that goes "Boys Boys Boys"? Well in this case it's "Price Price Price".

Hard to see how the MPG numbers for the Volt would matter much. If you look at voltstats the median Volt driver is getting 175 MPG. If GM improved the MPG numbers to something above what you can get with the Prius it might move the median MPG to to 180. Doesn't seem very exciting.
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Cheezmo
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Re: June Plugin Sales : Leaf 535, Volt 1760, PIP 695, FFE 89

Thu Aug 02, 2012 4:57 pm

GaslessInSeattle wrote:People want a car with enough range that they just don't need to think about it much, for most of the life of the car; they want to drive their car, they don't want their car to drive them.
What a great post! I think you really nailed it. I was willing to make compromises and enjoy planning trips with QC stops, etc. so dove in with the Leaf. But as you can see the practicality (and need for long range) led me afterward to the Volt. I love them both. But the Volt is the "don't have to think about it" car. Only thing is I do think about it and "gas anxiety" on the Volt is as bad or worse than "range anxiety" on the Leaf.

Of course the average person would not obsess over that and would not have to, which is why in my opinion the Volt is more "mainstream" as we are seeing in the sales results. I get a lot of people asking me "so which do you like better" and I have to say the Volt. The Leaf does everything except go as far as I need it to. The Volt does everything except stay completely electric (I'll take the 95%+ I expect I'll get), plus the Volt just handles better and that matters to me. Oh and you don't have to press "OK" every time you start the Volt.
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jackal
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Re: June Plugin Sales : Leaf 535, Volt 1760, PIP 695, FFE 89

Thu Aug 02, 2012 5:05 pm

Cheezmo wrote:Oh and you don't have to press "OK" every time you start the Volt.
That's really silly of Nissan's legal team. Luckily this can be corrected with a software update. *hint hint*
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RegGuheert
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Re: June Plugin Sales : Leaf 535, Volt 1760, PIP 695, FFE 89

Thu Aug 02, 2012 5:12 pm

GaslessInSeattle wrote:It is not uncommon for folks to fill up a gas car when they reach a quarter tank, people value security very highly. if we can assume that the current 300-400 mile range of an ice is what it takes for people to feel extra secure, I think we need an EV with at least 250 miles of range, allowing plenty of miles on reserve to avoid close calls.
I'm convinced, George! You should purchase the Model S with the BIG battery! :D
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GaslessInSeattle
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Re: June Plugin Sales : Leaf 535, Volt 1760, PIP 695, FFE 89

Thu Aug 02, 2012 7:24 pm

believe me, it's tempting, even ruminating on a reservation, but the real game changer is when that kind of range is available at Leaf prices, until then, it sure seems like the PHEV is going to head the pack.
RegGuheert wrote:
GaslessInSeattle wrote:It is not uncommon for folks to fill up a gas car when they reach a quarter tank, people value security very highly. if we can assume that the current 300-400 mile range of an ice is what it takes for people to feel extra secure, I think we need an EV with at least 250 miles of range, allowing plenty of miles on reserve to avoid close calls.
I'm convinced, George! You should purchase the Model S with the BIG battery! :D
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DaveinOlyWA
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Re: June Plugin Sales : Leaf 535, Volt 1760, PIP 695, FFE 89

Thu Aug 02, 2012 8:23 pm

Cheezmo wrote:
GaslessInSeattle wrote:People want a car with enough range that they just don't need to think about it much, for most of the life of the car; they want to drive their car, they don't want their car to drive them.
What a great post! I think you really nailed it. I was willing to make compromises and enjoy planning trips with QC stops, etc. so dove in with the Leaf. But as you can see the practicality (and need for long range) led me afterward to the Volt. I love them both. But the Volt is the "don't have to think about it" car. Only thing is I do think about it and "gas anxiety" on the Volt is as bad or worse than "range anxiety" on the Leaf.

Of course the average person would not obsess over that and would not have to, which is why in my opinion the Volt is more "mainstream" as we are seeing in the sales results. I get a lot of people asking me "so which do you like better" and I have to say the Volt. The Leaf does everything except go as far as I need it to. The Volt does everything except stay completely electric (I'll take the 95%+ I expect I'll get), plus the Volt just handles better and that matters to me. Oh and you don't have to press "OK" every time you start the Volt.
old way, safe way, comfortable way, WRONG WAY!!

sorry but i cant buy that because i cannot afford to buy that. the biggest problem is not the range of the EV, its the support of the EV. remove every gas station for 300 miles and see how well someone with a 400 mile range car will like it...

THEN we will talk about EVs "limited" range
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smkettner
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Re: June Plugin Sales : Leaf 535, Volt 1760, PIP 695, FFE 89

Thu Aug 02, 2012 9:13 pm

Norway wrote:In addition to all of the above, all electric cars park free on all street parking, we drive in the bus lane, we don't pay USD 400 annual car tax, and from this year 50% of all public parking spaces in the capital will be reserved for electric vehicles (with free 3.6 kW charging for all of them).
And does the gas burning population complain about all the EV perks? Seems like a lot of protest in the US on the subsidies and perks.
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JeffN
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Re: June Plugin Sales : Leaf 535, Volt 1760, PIP 695, FFE 89

Thu Aug 02, 2012 10:35 pm

TomT wrote:and the fact that the Volt has, for the small size and modest performance of the car, mediocre gas mileage when not electric.
The Volt EPA ratings exceed the combined city/highway gas mileage estimates of almost any non-hybrid car and it meets or exceeds the mileage ratings of several similarly-sized hybrid cars.

Of course, YMMV, but I got 44 mpg running on gas in Charge Sustaining (hybrid) mode averaged over 664 miles during the mid-June to mid-July 30 day period covered in my last regular emailed OnStar efficiency report. On many of those individual driving days I got 45-50 mpg during a 15-20 mile highway driving segment at an average speed of 56 mph after my battery ran out.

It's not a Prius, but I don't call the gas mileage mediocre.

I recently moved and my new occasional work commute from San Francisco to Silicon Valley is now 45 miles in each direction. I can drive each way on the highway on a full charge with 3-5 miles to spare. The EV efficiency works out to 26 kWh/100 miles. After 1.5+ years, I have 28,000 miles on my Volt and 11,000 of those were on gas (long road trips last year on gas plus a month without charging during the moving process).

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