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Re: July Plugin Sales : Leaf 395, Volt 1849, PIP 688, FFE 38

Posted: Sun Aug 12, 2012 11:44 am
by evnow
GaslessInSeattle wrote:My plan has always been to trade up till the battery capacity reaches 2-300 miles, now i'm not sure if I'll have the luxury of doing that due to rapid depreciation.
I've always had the same idea of trading up - but I decided to lease to take rapid depreciation out of the equation.

I think you can still do it by selling your Leaf & getting a leased one (may be in 6 months).

Re: July Plugin Sales : Leaf 395, Volt 1849, PIP 688, FFE 38

Posted: Sun Aug 12, 2012 11:59 am
by TomT
That is not going to give you any more range, however, other than what you might have lost due to capacity degradation...
evnow wrote:I think you can still do it by selling your Leaf & getting a leased one (may be in 6 months).

Re: July Plugin Sales : Leaf 395, Volt 1849, PIP 688, FFE 38

Posted: Sun Aug 12, 2012 12:03 pm
by evnow
TomT wrote:That is not going to give you any more range, however, other than what you might have lost due to capacity degradation...
It will in 3 years - without fear of rapid depreciation.

Unless Leaf '12 can be retrofitted with new batteries & electronics in 2016 for under $10k.

Re: July Plugin Sales : Leaf 395, Volt 1849, PIP 688, FFE 38

Posted: Sun Aug 12, 2012 12:29 pm
by DaveinOlyWA
evnow wrote:
TomT wrote:That is not going to give you any more range, however, other than what you might have lost due to capacity degradation...
It will in 3 years - without fear of rapid depreciation.

Unless Leaf '12 can be retrofitted with new batteries & electronics in 2016 for under $10k.
i think we are losing the fact that there will always be a need for a 100 mile car. fact of the matter; WE rarely need the range with currently complain about on a daily basis now.

i think swapping out an old pack for one that might have slightly more range will be a cheap option definitely under $10,000 (i am guesing about 5-6,000) but a significant change in voltage, configuration, etc that requires a new charger, and so on is not going to be financially feasible. it is simply too much to do

Re: July Plugin Sales : Leaf 395, Volt 1849, PIP 688, FFE 38

Posted: Sun Aug 12, 2012 12:42 pm
by TonyWilliams
TomT wrote:That is not going to give you any more range, however, other than what you might have lost due to capacity degradation...
evnow wrote:I think you can still do it by selling your Leaf & getting a leased one (may be in 6 months).
Well, I got not only original capacity range, but a far lower lease payment than my previous LEAF purchase.

Re: July Plugin Sales : Leaf 395, Volt 1849, PIP 688, FFE 38

Posted: Sun Aug 12, 2012 12:52 pm
by TomT
I thought you had purchased the Leaf you sold... If not, how did you break the lease?
TonyWilliams wrote:Well, I got not only original capacity range, but a far lower lease payment than my previous LEAF purchase.

Re: July Plugin Sales : Leaf 395, Volt 1849, PIP 688, FFE 38

Posted: Sun Aug 12, 2012 2:02 pm
by TonyWilliams
TomT wrote:I thought you had purchased the Leaf you sold... If not, how did you break the lease?
TonyWilliams wrote:Well, I got not only original capacity range, but a far lower lease payment than my previous LEAF purchase.

No, I purchased 2244. Trade in was $21-$22k at Mossy Nissan, and CarMax gave me $23k. I specifically got 20782 as a lease because:

1. 2244 could not complete my planned BC2BC trip because of then 13% degradation in RANGE (note, I don't care if that range is battery, software, or otherwise limited; it's just a fact).

2. I wanted to be ahead of the curve of what I perceived, and now believe, to be a significant design flaw that will kill the resale value of LEAFs.

3. The lease payment was less than half my purchase payment (with 1.99% financing).

4. I wanted a fixed resale (residual) at the end of my ownership period.

5. Turning in a lease for Lemon Law may or may not be simpler, assuming this car has the same degradation in the next 18 months that California law covers me.

6. I enjoyed blasted the battery ten times in a row at 136F battery temp, and knowing I've complied with all Nissan limitations, but that is obviously detrimental to the battery. I'll do it again next year at BC2BC 2013, Canada to Mexico !!!!! That should just about finish it off by November 2013, when something new will be on the market.

7. Yes, I've had little mice whispering in my ear how to turn in a LEAF lease (that I will not disclose, so as to not jeapordize those using that method, or my possible use in the future).

Re: July Plugin Sales : Leaf 395, Volt 1849, PIP 688, FFE 38

Posted: Sun Aug 12, 2012 3:34 pm
by GaslessInSeattle
The reason we haven't been leasing is because it locks us into the Leaf for 2-3 years. With purchasing, we figured we can assess the market and react quickly as needed and compelled. Now I'm even more conflicted about leasing with how things are turning out for the Leaf battery. I've learned so much about EV's owning our two Leaf's and wouldn't trade the experience for anything but it's starting to look like trading up is costing us, enough so that it won't take too many cycles before we are approaching the cost of a Tesla S, the only other real competitor to the Leaf in the BEV market, IMHO. Nissan's dropping sales figures and their apparent PR ineptitude have us worried about our investment even though we are otherwise happy with the Leaf.

We have concluded a few things over these short couple of years: a car with two to three times the range of the Leaf would substantially reduce the tedium of charging and ease our minds about truly "gradual" capacity loss, also battery temperature management is a must for EV's with current battery technology for both the winter and summer months, and fast charging is a must for public charging (level 2 charging is not viable for on the go charging in the wild, at least not for the mass market). I hope Nissan realizes that if they do not offer some substantial improvements, the likelihood of even more limited market penetration is high. Now that capacity loss is an issue, I don't see how they are going to get around offering an actual capacity warranty.

We may end up switching over to a Volt considering how well its doing in the market, to cover the gap till the S comes around, though the Volt is not exempt from sales tax in WA state, which is a bummer. We'd be paying the tax and then not getting any of it "back" when we traded in for the S, which is exempt from WA state sales tax.

for now, there is just no obvious clear and simple path forward in the BEV market and that is very unfortunate.

evnow wrote:
GaslessInSeattle wrote:My plan has always been to trade up till the battery capacity reaches 2-300 miles, now i'm not sure if I'll have the luxury of doing that due to rapid depreciation.
I've always had the same idea of trading up - but I decided to lease to take rapid depreciation out of the equation.

I think you can still do it by selling your Leaf & getting a leased one (may be in 6 months).

Re: July Plugin Sales : Leaf 395, Volt 1849, PIP 688, FFE 38

Posted: Sun Aug 12, 2012 6:29 pm
by evnow
GaslessInSeattle wrote:The reason we haven't been leasing is because it locks us into the Leaf for 2-3 years. With purchasing, we figured we can assess the market and react quickly as needed and compelled.
You can always payoff the lease and sell it whenever you want.

In our climate battery problems don't bother me.

I'd be happy with the 40 kWh Model S - if it had fact charging. So, for the next car, I'm hoping with crossed fingers that Infiniti LE would have atleast a 100 miles EPA range. In winter Leaf's range is a little low for our weekend needs.

Re: July Plugin Sales : Leaf 395, Volt 1849, PIP 688, FFE 38

Posted: Mon Aug 13, 2012 2:20 pm
by Weatherman
TonyWilliams wrote:No, I purchased 2244. Trade in was $21-$22k at Mossy Nissan, and CarMax gave me $23k.
And I see CarMax just posted 2244 for sale for $25,998.