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Nubo
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Re: Illinois Insanity

Wed May 15, 2019 8:56 pm

WetEV wrote:
Nubo wrote:In today's world the roads are a public commons and benefit everyone regardless of miles driven or whether or not they even own or drive a car. Roads should be funded from general taxes.
Commons? Generally a bad idea.

https://science.sciencemag.org/content/ ... /1243.full

Why do you think cities are looking at congestion pricing?
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I noticed you're still working with polymers.

WetEV
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Re: Illinois Insanity

Wed May 15, 2019 9:00 pm

Nubo wrote:
WetEV wrote:
Nubo wrote:In today's world the roads are a public commons and benefit everyone regardless of miles driven or whether or not they even own or drive a car. Roads should be funded from general taxes.
Commons? Generally a bad idea.

https://science.sciencemag.org/content/ ... /1243.full

Why do you think cities are looking at congestion pricing?
MoMoneyMoMoney
Didn't read the article on the Commons, did you?
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Most everything around here is wet during the rainy season. And the rainy season is long.
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Nubo
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Re: Illinois Insanity

Wed May 15, 2019 10:44 pm

WetEV wrote: Didn't read the article on the Commons, did you?
I'm familiar with the work. But as to funding roads, gasoline tax has miniscule effect on miles driven or lifestyle decisions, because it pales in comparison to the price of the fuel itself and demand has proven to be relatively inelastic over wide price swings. Even less effective as a signal to control congestion since the effective tax rate varies widely due to variations in fuel economy.

Congestion pricing is a separate issue, and tends to reward the well-to-do.
I noticed you're still working with polymers.

golfcart
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Re: Illinois Insanity

Thu May 16, 2019 5:45 am

wmcbrine wrote:State Senator Martin Sandoval proposes a $1000 annual tax on EV ownership:

https://chargedevs.com/newswire/illinoi ... ee-on-evs/

Please let him and other legislators know how you feel about this, especially if you're actually in Illinois.

Virginia has a $64 annual fee that is pretty close to what the owner of a 35mpg gas car would pay in gas tax if it was driven 15k miles per year. It seems like it is a bit premature, given the scarcity of EVs on the road, but I can live with that.

$1000 seems absurd unless they are providing some serious EV charging infrastructure and making it free to use. Even with Illinois much higher (than Virginia) gas taxes that fee shouldn't be over $200 to be proportional to the average ICE driver.
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WetEV
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Re: Illinois Insanity

Thu May 16, 2019 6:19 am

Nubo wrote:
WetEV wrote: Didn't read the article on the Commons, did you?
I'm familiar with the work. But as to funding roads, gasoline tax has miniscule effect on miles driven or lifestyle decisions, because it pales in comparison to the price of the fuel itself and demand has proven to be relatively inelastic over wide price swings. Even less effective as a signal to control congestion since the effective tax rate varies widely due to variations in fuel economy.
For a long discussion:

https://www.bloomberg.com/opinion/artic ... ds-anymore

Roads are not the major cost of driving, so taxes to fund roads shouldn't be as well.

Nubo wrote:Congestion pricing is a separate issue, and tends to reward the well-to-do.
As would a fee to use the Commons for pasture. Or parking meters.

https://science.sciencemag.org/content/ ... /1243.full
Taxing is a good coercive device. To keep downtown shoppers temperate in their use of parking space we introduce parking meters for short periods, and traffic fines for longer ones. We need not actually forbid a citizen to park as long as he wants to; we need merely make it increasingly expensive for him to do so.
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Most everything around here is wet during the rainy season. And the rainy season is long.
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Titanium48
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Re: Illinois Insanity

Thu May 16, 2019 10:59 am

Nubo wrote:
WetEV wrote: Didn't read the article on the Commons, did you?
I'm familiar with the work. But as to funding roads, gasoline tax has miniscule effect on miles driven or lifestyle decisions, because it pales in comparison to the price of the fuel itself and demand has proven to be relatively inelastic over wide price swings. Even less effective as a signal to control congestion since the effective tax rate varies widely due to variations in fuel economy.

Congestion pricing is a separate issue, and tends to reward the well-to-do.
Demand for gasoline is relatively inelastic in the short term because the amount of fuel people consume is mostly dictated by their choice of vehicle and choice of location, and both of those are major purchases that are made relatively infrequently. On a longer timescale, a sustained rise in fuel cost would begin to change people's decisions in these matters to favor more fuel-efficient vehicles and shorter commutes.
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Nubo
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Re: Illinois Insanity

Thu May 16, 2019 2:11 pm

Titanium48 wrote:
Nubo wrote:
WetEV wrote: Didn't read the article on the Commons, did you?
I'm familiar with the work. But as to funding roads, gasoline tax has miniscule effect on miles driven or lifestyle decisions, because it pales in comparison to the price of the fuel itself and demand has proven to be relatively inelastic over wide price swings. Even less effective as a signal to control congestion since the effective tax rate varies widely due to variations in fuel economy.

Congestion pricing is a separate issue, and tends to reward the well-to-do.
Demand for gasoline is relatively inelastic in the short term because the amount of fuel people consume is mostly dictated by their choice of vehicle and choice of location, and both of those are major purchases that are made relatively infrequently. On a longer timescale, a sustained rise in fuel cost would begin to change people's decisions in these matters to favor more fuel-efficient vehicles and shorter commutes.
Perhaps, if followed with conviction, and I'm not opposed to an aggressive Carbon Tax, at the producer level. But I don't think it needs to be tied to road funding.
I noticed you're still working with polymers.

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Re: Illinois Insanity

Thu May 16, 2019 9:56 pm

The rise of EVs is about to upset the apple cart as far as using fuel taxes to fund road construction and maintenance, which is unfortunate as it was one of the few examples of where directed taxation really worked to charge people for infrastructure in proportion to their use of the infrastructure.
The proper way to fix this, rather than introducing an absurdly high fixed registration fee for EVs, is to replace the registration fee with a "weight-distance charge". Instead of paying for a fixed time, you would pay to register your vehicle until a certain mileage. Your rate would also depend on the weight of your vehicle - heavy trucks that take up more space and cause far more damage to roads would pay more than small cars. Under that system, $1000 would keep your Leaf registered for about 50,000 miles, regardless of how long it takes you to drive that far.
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redLEAF
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Re: Illinois Insanity

Sun May 26, 2019 1:39 pm

We haven't seen any recent updates on this topic and with a quick look through this thread didn't see this mentioned ... Pritzker (IL State Gov for those who don't know) has a different proposal that includes lots more for ICE autos as well as an at least 'reasonable' annual fee of $250 vs $1,000 ... I say reasonable only in that it doesn't severely penalize EV driver's ... still of course discourage a bit vs. a very low current fee every 2-years (which I've personally enjoyed since buying my first EV back in '11). I've copied the section on cars below; EV fee would be $51 more than any ICE newer than 3-years old. He has MANY more taxes proposed than just for car registrations ... Illinois insanity at its best!!

https://www.illinoispolicy.org/pritzker ... 9-billion/


Nearly double maximum vehicle registration fee ($490 million)

The preliminary capital plan would also hike vehicle registration fees, imposing a new cost structure based on the age of the car. The current annual fee of $101 would jump to $199 for vehicles 3 years old or newer, $169 for vehicles 4-6 years old, $139 for vehicles 7-11 years old, and $109 for vehicles 12 years and older.

The $199 registration fee for newer vehicles would be higher than any neighboring state and third-highest in the nation, according to Ballotpedia research. Illinois’ vehicle registration fee was just $79 as recently as 2009.

15-fold increase in electric vehicle registration fee ($4 million)

The registration fee for electric vehicles would rise to $250 per year from $34 every other year.
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rmay635703
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Re: Illinois Insanity

Sun May 26, 2019 4:54 pm

Titanium48 wrote:The rise of EVs is about to upset the apple cart as far as using fuel taxes to fund road construction and maintenance, which is unfortunate as it Is a false pretense .
Above is false and a red herring,
excluding California the 20 year old road funding crisis has nothing to do with EVs.

There is less than 1% of EVs on roads in all areas outside California and pure BEV sales are actually falling in many areas including Wisconsin.

Because many standard metrics lump anything with a plug together (also counting just sales not differentiating new Vrs used sales) you can’t draw meaningful conclusions beyond the fact there are only 15,000 EVs in Illinois which is a very very small number

To put things into perspective
New York which is #2 in EV sales sold 1/10 the number sold in California
Outside California EVs are nearly irrelevant and selling in unstable numbers

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