SageBrush
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Re: CHAdeMO dead?

Sat Feb 20, 2021 7:07 pm

alozzy wrote:
Sat Feb 20, 2021 6:42 pm
Mass adoption and scale necessitates a single L2 standard and a single DC L3 standard that's viable for the next 20 years (at a minimum). So, ALL these proprietary BS "standards" have to go.

Any mass infrastructure rollout needs to be delayed until the EV industry and governments figure this out. The world wide EV charging infrastructure cost is going to be staggering, so there's no way we can afford to get this wrong!
I agree that single standards are preferable but the lion's share of the cost is not the socket or the cable.
2013 LEAF 'S' Model with QC & rear-view camera
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DougWantsALeaf
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Re: CHAdeMO dead?

Sat Feb 20, 2021 10:33 pm

That's a good point. Insideevs did make a point once that the multi standards are confusing to many consumers, butthat includes the difference between L2 and L3. Oddly, J1772/Chademo dual ports helps in that regard as it shows clear delineation whether you are doing an AC plug in or DC.

We need to get to the point where every freeway exit has 2 or 3 DC stations. At this point I don't care if they are all 50KW, we just need many more locations.
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alozzy
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Re: CHAdeMO dead?

Sat Feb 20, 2021 11:22 pm

SageBrush wrote:
Sat Feb 20, 2021 7:07 pm
alozzy wrote:
Sat Feb 20, 2021 6:42 pm
Mass adoption and scale necessitates a single L2 standard and a single DC L3 standard that's viable for the next 20 years (at a minimum). So, ALL these proprietary BS "standards" have to go.

Any mass infrastructure rollout needs to be delayed until the EV industry and governments figure this out. The world wide EV charging infrastructure cost is going to be staggering, so there's no way we can afford to get this wrong!
I agree that single standards are preferable but the lion's share of the cost is not the socket or the cable.
If the only difference between CCS, CHADEMO, Tesla Supercharger, etc was the socket or connector, then I would agree that "the lion's share of the cost is not the socket or the cable"...

But that's the problem - a single "socket" type, to which EV owners plug-in an adapter cable to the DC charger, doesn't exist. That's what's missing and why I'm arguing that standardization is a necessity at this point.

Instead of deploying a simplified DC charging machine, that's standardized with a universal "socket", there exist literally hundreds of different DC charging machine designs with little or no standardization. Not only does that make the machines more expensive to design and manufacture, but it also confuses EV newbies. Enthusiastic early adopters have been willing to put up with the confusion of machine designs, connector types, etc but your average car owner won't be so forgiving.

Case in point - typical combo DC chargers that are designed to provide both CHADEMO and CCS charging options, but they can only supply power to one at a time? Just plain stupid...

It's like the lack of standardization for AC mains voltages and frequencies all over again, which resulted in a mish mash of residential voltages (110V/120V/220V/230V/240V) and frequencies (50 vs 60 Hz) across the world - not to mention differences in 3-phases supplies too.

That's why I'm arguing that Biden's plan to deploy 500,000 new EV chargers, before a single DC charging standard exists, is likewise dumb. To invest an estimated $5B on a mish-mash of EV DC fast chargers is a poor long term investment IMHO.

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SageBrush
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Re: CHAdeMO dead?

Sun Feb 21, 2021 4:10 am

alozzy wrote:
Sat Feb 20, 2021 11:22 pm
Case in point - typical combo DC chargers that are designed to provide both CHADEMO and CCS charging options, but they can only supply power to one at a time? Just plain stupid...
That is a good example of why I think you are looking at this wrong.

The one-at-a-time limitation has nothing to do with two different cables, it reflects the power plumbing. In the same vein, it is very common to find DCFC stations that have two identical cables, of which only one is powered at a time.

I'm pretty sure that costs of DCFC are analogous to those seen with EVSE installations: The EVSE is moderately priced, while the installation can be anywhere from cheap to prohibitively expensive. The wiring to the station, need for a transformer or control circuitry, upgrade for more power ... those are the high cost items.

@GerryAZ, anything to add or correct ?
2013 LEAF 'S' Model with QC & rear-view camera
Bought Jan 2017 from N. California
Two years in Colorado, now in NM
03/18: 58 Ahr, 28k miles
11/18: 56.16 Ahr, 30k miles
09/20: 54.3 Ahr; 38k miles
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ejm4
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Re: CHAdeMO dead?

Sun Feb 21, 2021 4:30 am

To my knowledge CHAdeMO can only charge up to 50kw? Most of the new BEV's are able to charge at higher rates. I am all for standardization.

I also read where EVGO DC chargers will now offer Tesla charging connectors.

I also own one of the VW diesel-gate Passats and it operated flawless.
2020Nissan Leaf SV Plus

SageBrush
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Re: CHAdeMO dead?

Sun Feb 21, 2021 6:35 am

ejm4 wrote:
Sun Feb 21, 2021 4:30 am
To my knowledge CHAdeMO can only charge up to 50kw?
It varies by location

Your LEAF is limited to 100 or 125 Amps however, so no amount of charger 'standardization' at e.g. a high power rating is going to help increase your charging rate.

I'm looking forward to reading at least one post from someone who is in favor of 'standardization' who is not swayed by false assumptions.
2013 LEAF 'S' Model with QC & rear-view camera
Bought Jan 2017 from N. California
Two years in Colorado, now in NM
03/18: 58 Ahr, 28k miles
11/18: 56.16 Ahr, 30k miles
09/20: 54.3 Ahr; 38k miles
-----
2018 Tesla Model 3 LR, Delivered 6/2018

DaveinOlyWA
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Re: CHAdeMO dead?

Sun Feb 21, 2021 7:45 am

ejm4 wrote:
Sun Feb 21, 2021 4:30 am
To my knowledge CHAdeMO can only charge up to 50kw? Most of the new BEV's are able to charge at higher rates. I am all for standardization.

I also read where EVGO DC chargers will now offer Tesla charging connectors.

I also own one of the VW diesel-gate Passats and it operated flawless.
200 amp stations are available which implies an 80 kw charging speed. Highest I saw was 205 amps so not sure what the LEAF top end is. Nissan implies it would be 250 amps maybe? Only see this on Plus models at this time.
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WetEV
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Re: CHAdeMO dead?

Sun Feb 21, 2021 10:25 am

SageBrush wrote:
Sun Feb 21, 2021 6:35 am
I'm looking forward to reading at least one post from someone who is in favor of 'standardization' who is not swayed by false assumptions.
Why don't we standardize on Tesla Supercharger, and get rid of all the competition?

Then Tesla wouldn't have to care anymore.
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ejm4
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Re: CHAdeMO dead?

Sun Feb 21, 2021 12:36 pm

SageBrush wrote:
Sun Feb 21, 2021 6:35 am
ejm4 wrote:
Sun Feb 21, 2021 4:30 am
To my knowledge CHAdeMO can only charge up to 50kw?
It varies by location

Your LEAF is limited to 100 or 125 Amps however, so no amount of charger 'standardization' at e.g. a high power rating is going to help increase your charging rate.

I'm looking forward to reading at least one post from someone who is in favor of 'standardization' who is not swayed by false assumptions.
I should have been more clear in my previous post. I understand the limitations of my Leaf, however I only leased the Leaf for two years until my reserved a Mustang Mach E GT arrives that will benefit from the faster charging speeds.
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coulomb
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Re: CHAdeMO dead?

Sun Feb 21, 2021 3:43 pm

alozzy wrote:
Sat Feb 20, 2021 11:22 pm
Case in point - typical combo DC chargers that are designed to provide both CHADEMO and CCS charging options, but they can only supply power to one at a time? Just plain stupid..
If you were charging two vehicles at once, they would be requiring different voltages and currents. It's not like you can parallel the high current terminals, and of course, the protocol will be vastly different if one is CCS and the other is CHAdeMO. So you need completely separate power electronics for the two handles.

Even so, the latest Tritium charrgers (RTM75) have provision for this, and they say it will be an extra cost option available in the next few months. This will be very useful in Australia, which is very sparsely populated outside a handful of large cities, and EV adoption is embarrassingly low due to our federal government being in the pocket of big oil and coal. A typical fast charrger installation has one or sometimes two heads, usually with CCS and CHAdeMO handles. We have a fair number of grey market Leafs and (i)MiEVs imported from Japan (also a right hand drive country), so CHAdeMO is still needed here for quite some time. The Tritium literature indicates that dual charging will be a world first.
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