CHAdeMO might not be U.S. standard?

http://www.allcarselectric.com/blog/1059953_u-s-carmakers-to-japan-dont-need-your-stinkin-fast-charge

Is anyone else alarmed by the above article?

Might early adopters get burned by this seemingly political issue (i.e. the big three seem to be trying to screw up the Japanese since they are first to market with quick charge technology) if CHAdeMO doesn't get adopted in the U.S.?

Can anyone within technical expertise comment on the feasibility of simply switching connectors at a later date if necessary? Also, who's going to pay for that retrofit?

When US carmakers get serious about making EVs, this might be an issue. Until then, it's an impediment to building out the quick charge infrastructure.

This is certainly not news. We've been discussing it here off-and-on for at least a year. See this thread, for example:
Level 3 Charging Updates - SAE Meetings

The existence of two competing proposed standards was one key reason I originally planned not to get the QC port. I ended up getting it, and having to pay for it anyway, due to a Nissan foul-up. I still think there is a very good chance I will never use it.

It is totally STUPID to NOT have a world-wide standard. If the US standards committee insists upon a NA-only standard, for NO good technical reason, JUST to make it so that I cannot easily take my car to Europe, I will try to ignore their suggested standard and never again buy one of their products.

With the proposed "US" standard, and a different World standard, then ALL manufacturers will be forced to design their cars for TWO interfaces ... a real WASTE of resources.

If I had a vote (instead of a closed GM-run committee), I would vote NO, by reason of sanity.

If the communication is the same a simple adapter would solve the problem. Perhaps this is why Ecotality and others are dragging their feet.

garygid said:

If the US standards committee insists upon a NA-only standard, for NO good technical reason, JUST to make it so that I cannot easily take my car to Europe, I will try to ignore their suggested standard and never again buy one of their products.

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Curious, but just how often are you driving to Europe?

I'd be happy if I could just drive to Dallas from here.

leafenvy said:

http://www.allcarselectric.com/blog/1059953_u-s-carmakers-to-japan-dont-need-your-stinkin-fast-charge

Can anyone within technical expertise comment on the feasibility of simply switching connectors at a later date if necessary? Also, who's going to pay for that retrofit?

Click to expand...

I smell an opportunity for an adapter here.

Ingineer?

This is one of those things where the first-mover has a huge advantage.

If EV Project can get off their acorn and install a few hundred DC stations, then you'd have to be insane to make a car with a different connector that has no infrastructure.

Same reason we still have these awful 120v plugs.

GroundLoop said:

If EV Project can get off their acorn and install a few hundred DC stations, then you'd have to be insane to make a car with a different connector that has no infrastructure.

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I agree that it is all about critical mass. When they get around to actually voting on this "standard" how many CHAdeMO equipped vehicles are already going to be on the road?

garygid said:

It is totally STUPID to NOT have a world-wide standard. If the US standards committee insists upon a NA-only standard, for NO good technical reason, JUST to make it so that I cannot easily take my car to Europe, I will try to ignore their suggested standard and never again buy one of their products.

With the proposed "US" standard, and a different World standard, then ALL manufacturers will be forced to design their cars for TWO interfaces ... a real WASTE of resources.

If I had a vote (instead of a closed GM-run committee), I would vote NO, by reason of sanity.

Click to expand...

Yes and can you get the US to also switch to the metric system while you are at it?
The whole thing is an American SNAFU.

GroundLoop said:

This is one of those things where the first-mover has a huge advantage.

If EV Project can get off their acorn and install a few hundred DC stations, then you'd have to be insane to make a car with a different connector that has no infrastructure.

Same reason we still have these awful 120v plugs.

Click to expand...

Too bad they suck. They need funding metrics and deadlines.

garygid said:

It is totally STUPID to NOT have a world-wide standard. If the US standards committee insists upon a NA-only standard, for NO good technical reason

Click to expand...

There is a reason: The US manufacturers want a single connector for both the on-board charger as well as an external quick charger so they can have a "single opening" for the charge connector. Well, Nissan seems to have done OK at making a single door with 2 connectors behind it, but the way standards committees work, someone interpreted one opening to mean one connector, so the committee will plow forward with a mostly unnessessary standard.

leafenvy said:

http://www.allcarselectric.com/blog/1059953_u-s-carmakers-to-japan-dont-need-your-stinkin-fast-charge

Is anyone else alarmed by the above article?

Click to expand...

Not alarmed and not at ALL surprised. Notice the author? Our 'own' George Parrott - who's Leaf shares a stable with a Volt.

GM isn't using L3/DC fast/quick charging at all - so they don't care where the standard falls. While the SAE continues to work on their 'single connector' solution for L1/L2/L3, they admit that if their work doesn't prove useful, they'll simply adopt CHAdeMO. And at the end of the day, the SAE recommended practice is only that - a recommendation.

CHAdeMO's very likely to become the default standard well before the SAE finishes their 'connector by committee' efforts.

AndyH said:

CHAdeMO's very likely to become the default standard well before the SAE finishes their 'connector by committee' efforts.

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This is what I have thought about the situation as well. If we can only get a few installed, it will become the default. How can we promote the installation of a few to help?

Spies said:

GroundLoop said:

If EV Project can get off their acorn and install a few hundred DC stations, then you'd have to be insane to make a car with a different connector that has no infrastructure.

Click to expand...

I agree that it is all about critical mass. When they get around to actually voting on this "standard" how many CHAdeMO equipped vehicles are already going to be on the road?

Click to expand...

Unless Ford can start selling Focus EV before November, second mass production EV Mitsubishi "I" will roll out by November and it has CHAdeMO option.
http://media.mitsubishicars.com/releases/89b5cb15-e4d6-3752-a3b5-883c4dad9d1d?

palmermd said:

AndyH said:

CHAdeMO's very likely to become the default standard well before the SAE finishes their 'connector by committee' efforts.

Click to expand...

This is what I have thought about the situation as well. If we can only get a few installed, it will become the default. How can we promote the installation of a few to help?

Click to expand...

The single best chance this has at quantity is the Doe/EV Project effort to INSTALL them. IF they had made good on the promise to install hundreds of them, and 60 in San Diego alone, it would be a Done Deal -- who wouldn't want a car with CHAdeMO when that's what you see at all the ARCO/BestBuy/Rest stops?

ECOtality seems to be the weak link in that chain -- cashing checks and writing press releases, rather than installing L2 or L3 chargers.

ht2 said:

Unless Ford can start selling Focus EV before November, second mass production EV Mitsubishi "I" will roll out by November and it has CHAdeMO option.
http://media.mitsubishicars.com/releases/89b5cb15-e4d6-3752-a3b5-883c4dad9d1d?

Click to expand...

I haven't read anything about the Focus EV having a quick charge port either, only L2, so why any US companies are resistant to CHAdeMO is beyond me..

GroundLoop said:

ECOtality seems to be the weak link in that chain -- cashing checks and writing press releases, rather than installing L2 or L3 chargers

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I wonder if a bunch of MNL people could get together and form a non-profit corporation to install quick charger(s). Payment through one of the "existing" L2 smart card networks, set to break even after paying for electricity, charger, and lease of location (if any; it could be donated). I wouldn't mind if it was just one location I could never use like, say, buying out the Vacaville charger from PG&E and taking down the "closed" sign. High usage and media attention to one unit could really get things rolling for other locations.

TLeaf said:

I haven't read anything about the Focus EV having a quick charge port either, only L2, so why any US companies are resistant to CHAdeMO is beyond me..

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Yes Ford seems content to rely on their faster 6.6 kW L2 charger. GM doesn't need quick charge for the tiny battery in the Volt. And GM is introducing their true EV in China, so they don't need Chademo in the US. So lack of a quick charge standard in the US can only help GM and Ford market share. Wouldn't it be ironic if GM promoted Chademo in China while working to stall it in the US?

walterbays said:

GroundLoop said:

ECOtality seems to be the weak link in that chain -- cashing checks and writing press releases, rather than installing L2 or L3 chargers

Click to expand...

I wonder if a bunch of MNL people could get together and form a non-profit corporation to install quick charger(s). Payment through one of the "existing" L2 smart card networks, set to break even after paying for electricity, charger, and lease of location (if any; it could be donated).

Click to expand...

There is already such a company, and they're already funded.

What I'd like to do is get a bunch of MNL people to go to San Francisco and picket the ECOtality offices for an afternoon.. see if we can get some press and increase the pressure to Install All Ready. Maybe get some FOIA requests to the DoE and attention on this issue. It's critically important to the success of EVs that ECOtality deliver on their contract.

walterbays said:

Wouldn't it be ironic if GM promoted Chademo in China while working to stall it in the US?

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I would expect no less from GM