OrientExpress wrote:There are probably a like number of cars that exhibit excess capacity, and they are edge cases as well.
OrientExpress wrote:There are probably a like number of cars that exhibit excess capacity, and they are edge cases as well.
Versus a rate of degradation that allows an EV to be an enhancement to our environment rather than something worse than a hybrid or even a standard ICE.OrientExpress wrote:Accelerated vs. what? Too soon vs. what?
We are not discussing the entire production run of cars here. This thread is specifically addressing the application of the Nissan LEAF to extremely hot climates.OrientExpress wrote:I just don't see an issue here other than speculation, especially in looking at the entire production run of cars.
Accelerated vs. Nissans claim of 80% capacity after 5 years. There wasn't any disclaimer about hot climates being an exception. The problem here is lack of disclosure before the sale (assuming they knew about this, which seems likely given the extensive testing reported in Arizona). As far as I can tell, my Leaf is on schedule to achieve or beat that capacity estimate, so I personally have no complaints about battery capacity. However, with 17 reports of 15% capacity loss after about one year (16 in Arizona, one in Texas I believe) there is obviously a problem with battery longevity in hot climates. I predict that there will be a flood of reports over the next several months of early loss of battery capacity in Arizona... and that Nissan will continue to deny the problem as long as they possibly can. Of course, I hope I am wrong on both counts.OrientExpress wrote:Accelerated vs. what? Too soon vs. what?
Accelerated vs. Nissans claim of 80% capacity after 5 years.
OrientExpress wrote:My laptop's battery has been in use for 13 months. It only has about 90% of its capacity now. I use it every day in very harsh environments. Should I be concerned?
Pretty easy to say when you're not one of the 17 known cases and don't live in a hot climate.OrientExpress wrote: I'm just not seeing the rationale for the furor.
If your battery costs $15,000 and you use it for transportation on a daily basis, then yes, you should be concerned.OrientExpress wrote:My laptop's battery has been in use for 13 months. It only has about 90% of its capacity now. I use it every day in very harsh environments. Should I be concerned?
Yes, that is the kind of information Nissan should be giving us, assuming they know.Will that number be more or less this winter? Is this a temporary condition? Is this a quick initial slope leveling out?
According to the service manual, when it has lost 2 capacity barsWhen does a car reach 80% capacity?
For those who have a long commute or want to reach a destination further away, I would say definitely.Is the drivability of these cars compromised?
Yes, but it isn't as relevant as "your mileage (battery longevity) may (will) vary quite a bit from the average if you live in Phoenix"--which is exactly what Nissan should have disclosed before the sale if they knew this to be the case.Does the saying "your mileage may vary" have any relevance here?
OrientExpress wrote:So far the furor seems to be over 17 cars out of a population of 25000+ that have this condition currently, which is more than 3 std. deviations from the mean (which is the definition of an edge case).
Tom hit the nail right on the head here. OrientExpress's statistics of 17/25000 (regurgitation of what Nissan said) is totally baseless because I'm sure there are a lot more owners in Phoenix who have capacity loss who don't report on the forum.TomT wrote:Your premise is faulty. You need to use only the number of cars in the phoenix area (around 500) or your statistic is essentially meaningless in this context. And there are likely more in Phoenix that are affected than 17 since not everyone is on this board and reporting...
OrientExpress wrote:So far the furor seems to be over 17 cars out of a population of 25000+ that have this condition currently, which is more than 3 std. deviations from the mean (which is the definition of an edge case).
While I understand your reasoning, let's not forget that it was Nissan who told me through their dealer service rep at my 1 year battery check up that it was no surprise to them that I lost 1 capacity bar (15% according to the manual, 10% according to their service rep, whom would you believe more?), and that it's normal to lose a lot up front then very little afterwards.skippycoyote wrote:Just my two cents...Volusiano wrote:
I would venture to say that Nissan knows about the early capacity loss through their tests, but chose not to disclose it in fear of throwing a monkey wrench into their initial launch campaign. They chose to let initial customers in hot weather cities discover the problem by themselves and if it turns out to be a widespread problem, they'll play it by ears and find a way to alleviate consumers' concern when the time comes.
Considering the fact that my dealer, the Nissan website, and the Nissan paperwork openly covered dozens of reasons why a LEAF would not be a match for people under certain driving conditions, I have a hard time believing that Nissan would just sell the vehicle in Arizona if they thought it would be a serious problem. It was made very clear to me that if I would be driving in a very cold climate, needing a vehicle for a long commute, depending on multiple QCing, towing a trailer, etc, that the LEAF would not be a good choice for me.