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Re: How should Nissan respond to dropping capacity in Phoeni

Posted: Wed Jun 20, 2012 9:44 am
by OrientExpress
4.

Re: How should Nissan respond to dropping capacity in Phoeni

Posted: Wed Jun 20, 2012 10:22 am
by GaslessInSeattle
IMHO, you are taking a "head in the sand" approach to this. 15-20% capacity loss in one year is in no way gradual, accept perhaps by legal definition. It matters very little what the legal definition is, because regardless of what gradual actually is, 20% in one year is unacceptable and will/is leading to a dramatic double take by owners on their opinion of the brand. As stoaty said, Nissan needs to step up to the plate and deal with this and not just say "it's normal". If by normal they mean expected, then clearly they failed to communicate realistic expectations to buyers. If they didn't know this was going to happen then they failed to adequately test before marketing. Either way, they need to make this feel good for folks or they will loose a lot of their fan club. GM succeeded in containing the damage by the way they handled the Volt fires, Nissan is not succeeding with their current approach. Nissan must define what more than "gradual" is, make it reasonable and define the thresholds for warranty replacement. They could sweeten the pot by saying if the battery fails prematurely and has not been abused, then it will be replaced with second generation heat resistant batteries from the Smyrna plant. knowing that there is a safety net and that one might even end up ahead of the game, is what will quell the anxiety. I think most of us are up for some unexpected bumps in the road, we just want to make sure we are not going to get screwed!
OrientExpress wrote:
The issue here is that Nissan apparently knew about this problem and didn't disclose it.
Therein lies the disconnect. Diminished Battery capacity over time is a known characteristic of all batteries, not a problem, as in a manufacturing or design problem, which is what is alluded to here.

Nissan and all manufacturers of EVs know that over time the capacity of the batteries that power their cars will diminish, and are quite transparent about communicating that with the general public. As you know almost as much space in the owners manuals is devoted to this issue as how to wear seat belts and use airbags. It is a issue that Nissan goes above and beyond to communicate and explain to the owners of their cars, because it is unique to EVs.

Can anyone predict with absolute confidence how slowly or rapidly that will occur, no, because there are too many environmental variables to factor in.

These are the facts, and that is that.

Re: How should Nissan respond to dropping capacity in Phoeni

Posted: Wed Jun 20, 2012 12:44 pm
by OrientExpress
[3.

Re: How should Nissan respond to dropping capacity in Phoeni

Posted: Wed Jun 20, 2012 1:01 pm
by Stoaty
OrientExpress wrote:I also see a lot of speculation, innuendo, armchair quarterbacking, and accusations flying back and forth, but what I don't see is an actual problem.
As far as I can tell, you are the only one who doesn't see the problem, except Nissan... and no, I do not live in a hot area and don't have a problem myself.

Re: How should Nissan respond to dropping capacity in Phoeni

Posted: Wed Jun 20, 2012 1:05 pm
by TomT
It must be nice to live in a vacuum! :lol:
OrientExpress wrote:I also see a lot of speculation, innuendo, armchair quarterbacking, and accusations flying back and forth, but what I don't see is an actual problem.

Re: How should Nissan respond to dropping capacity in Phoeni

Posted: Wed Jun 20, 2012 1:36 pm
by QueenBee
Stoaty wrote:As far as I can tell, you are the only one who doesn't see the problem, except Nissan... and no, I do not live in a hot area and don't have a problem myself.
To add to the speculation I'm sure Nissan is well aware of what's going on and is determining if these cases are real problems and as they are collecting data and researching I'm sure they are planning their strategy on how to respond. I expect a similar response as we got about the initial AC related recall. This one is probably going to take longer to figure out and develop a plan. At this point I bet they are getting enough detailed data out of the battery reports to do a lot of research. It would surprise me if end up wanting to see some of the packs for more analysis.

Also I think a lot of their response is going to depend on what happens next with these lost capacity bars and also why exactly they are being lost and how many are degrading this quickly.

With how much reassuring we've gotten from Nissan about the useful life of these packs I expect they are going to do the right thing when it really comes down to it. In the mean time we have to collect as much of our own data and try to have some patience as the people who are actually in the know figure things out. Have to remember Nissan is a big corporation and so its hard from them to be completely transparent and up front since that could get them a lot of bad PR for something that turns out to be a minor issue that they can easily fix. I would guess they are waiting to publicly address this until they have all the information/research and a plan.

I find it hard to believe that Nissan expected this to happen and the people that are sayings it is normal are likely not the engineers on the inside of Nissan.

If we've learned anything from the mostly minor issues people have had with their LEAFS so far Nissan engineers are watching these problems like a hawk. They are continuing to invest lots of engineering into it so I think it's fair to try and be as patient as possible since it's still very early.

This makes me really really want a LEAFScan right now, hopefully they are getting close to ready as I don't want a gidmeter and LEAFScan.

Re: How should Nissan respond to dropping capacity in Phoeni

Posted: Wed Jun 20, 2012 2:03 pm
by shrink
OrientExpress wrote: I also see a lot of speculation, innuendo, armchair quarterbacking, and accusations flying back and forth, but what I don't see is an actual problem.
Then why don't you switch cars with one of the owners here who has lost a capacity bar? Or we can just wait until mine loses one this summer and then make the switch.

I don't see a problem.

Re: How should Nissan respond to dropping capacity in Phoeni

Posted: Wed Jun 20, 2012 2:15 pm
by kubel
QueenBee wrote:Have to remember Nissan is a big corporation and so its hard from them to be completely transparent and up front since that could get them a lot of bad PR for something that turns out to be a minor issue that they can easily fix. I would guess they are waiting to publicly address this until they have all the information/research and a plan.
Nissan, like many Japanese corporations, have a strong tendency to not want to pass bad news up the chain of command. It's just part of their management culture. If there is any silence from Nissan on this issue, it's possible it is for that reason.

There's also the possibility that they are well aware of their battery technology shortcomings, but aren't going to do anything to address them.

Re: How should Nissan respond to dropping capacity in Phoeni

Posted: Wed Jun 20, 2012 2:37 pm
by OrientExpress
Nissan, like many Japanese corporations, have a strong tendency to not want to pass bad news up the chain of command. It's just part of their management culture. If there is any silence from Nissan on this issue, it's possible it is for that reason.
I doubt it, This board is read by individuals at many levels of management at Nissan both here and in Japan.

Re: How should Nissan respond to dropping capacity in Phoeni

Posted: Wed Jun 20, 2012 2:42 pm
by OrientExpress
With how much reassuring we've gotten from Nissan about the useful life of these packs I expect they are going to do the right thing when it really comes down to it. In the mean time we have to collect as much of our own data and try to have some patience as the people who are actually in the know figure things out. Have to remember Nissan is a big corporation and so its hard from them to be completely transparent and up front since that could get them a lot of bad PR for something that turns out to be a minor issue that they can easily fix. I would guess they are waiting to publicly address this until they have all the information/research and a plan.

I find it hard to believe that Nissan expected this to happen and the people that are sayings it is normal are likely not the engineers on the inside of Nissan.

If we've learned anything from the mostly minor issues people have had with their LEAFS so far Nissan engineers are watching these problems like a hawk. They are continuing to invest lots of engineering into it so I think it's fair to try and be as patient as possible since it's still very early.
This is exactly what is happening. If there turns out that there is actually an issue, I am confident that Nissan will fix it. In the mean time, I would encourage everyone to take a chill pill and let things work themselves out.