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hill
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Re: How should Nissan respond to dropping capacity in Phoeni

Wed Jun 20, 2012 4:32 pm

Oh - that ... but that was remedied a year ago so I'm not connecting the dots as to how it's relevant to battery degradation. If your car dies in the street, that's a danger. If the battery won't take you as far, that's not a danger.

.

GRA
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Re: How should Nissan respond to dropping capacity in Phoeni

Wed Jun 20, 2012 4:34 pm

OrientExpress wrote:
I really don't get how you can say this isn't an issue?
I can say that because everything that I have seen here completely antidotal, and essentially subjective laypersons interpretation.

If there is an issue, those that are qualified to make that assessment will do so.
Loss of capacity bars isn't anecdotal, it's fact. And as pointed out upthread, if you find that the $40k car you expected to be able to do your commute in for at least 5 years (based on Nissan's 80% after five years) is unable to do so owing to capacity loss after a year or two owing to your local climate, you are going to be mighty pissed. If Nissan doesn't take action soon to both compensate the owners who have already suffered losses, and to change the way they sell/advertise cars in hot climates, they are going to suffer the same kind of reputation hit that other companies who ignored complaints from customers have, even ignoring any lawsuits that result. Especially since the average Leaf owner is supportive of the technology, and isn't looking for an excuse to criticise it. And 'those that are qualified to decide if there's an issue' are going to be Nissan's current and future customers, regardless of what company tech reps/lawyers/PR hacks have to say. If people aren't willing to buy your cars, there's an issue.

Eventually, what it will take will be capacity warranties. I think GM took the right approach with the Volt, using an ATMS and using a smaller proportion of the battery's total capacity even though that boosted the initial cost. I'd much rather see a company guarantee a lesser capacity for x number of years than quote a maximum that won't be achievable for the period of time most people keep a car.

Finally, re your methodology of quoting 5 or 17/~25,000 of Leaf sold worldwide (rather than just those Leafs operating in high temp areas like Phoenix) as being the appropriate denominator for determining if there is a problem. By that methodology, the Challenger's SRB gaskets only catastrophically failed 1 time in 50-odd launches, a ~2% failure rate, instead of the 100% failure rate in below-freezing launches. Which do you think is the appropriate method for deciding there's a major problem that needs to be addressed?

Obviously, NASA could have decided to scrub any shuttle launch where the temp was low enough to cause a potential failure, or they could have done what they in fact did do, re-design the gaskets. Nissan faces a similar choice; they can either refuse to sell the cars in areas with prolonged high temps (or only with warnings that much quicker degradation is to be expected, perhaps as much as 15-20% in the first year), or else they can re-design the battery pack. Just saying "all is for the best in the best of all possible worlds" isn't going to cut it.

[Edited to correct Candide quote]
Last edited by GRA on Thu Jun 21, 2012 2:28 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Guy [I have lots of experience designing/selling off-grid AE systems, some using EVs but don't own one. Local trips are by foot, bike and/or rapid transit].

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OrientExpress
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Re: How should Nissan respond to dropping capacity in Phoeni

Wed Jun 20, 2012 5:14 pm

Everyone, I respect your opinions, but you have to admit, that is what they are. The data presented here is anecdotal and interpreted by people that mean well, but they are simply lay interpretations that are biased by personal expectations and conjecture.

If there is an issue, those that are qualified to make that assessment will do so, and will provide the necessary corrective actions.

In the mean time, if you feel that you have a legitimate issue with your LEAF, I suggest that you visit your dealer and have your car examined. If you don't like the diagnosis you receive from that dealer, go to another dealer and have it checked again. If you still don't like the diagnosis, take it to a 3rd dealer and have it checked again.

If you have not had your annual battery check, and the car is due, please have that done as well.

I would also recommend that you revisit the owners documentation that came with your car, including the LEAF customer disclosure form that you were presented with prior to actually purchasing or leasing the car. Those documents will help you calibrate what your expectations should be.

And please, continue to enjoy driving your LEAF.
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davewill
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Re: How should Nissan respond to dropping capacity in Phoeni

Wed Jun 20, 2012 5:40 pm

OrientExpress wrote:Everyone, I respect your opinions, but you have to admit, that is what they are. The data presented here is anecdotal and interpreted by people that mean well, but they are simply lay interpretations that are biased by personal expectations and conjecture. ...
I gotta say, you do patronizing well. When your wife calls you to tell you that the toilet has backed up, I suppose you tell her the problem is just "anecdotal" and to call again when a certified plumber has confirmed it. :lol:
2014 Rav4 EV, Blizzard Pearl White
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OrientExpress
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Re: How should Nissan respond to dropping capacity in Phoeni

Wed Jun 20, 2012 5:49 pm

When your wife calls you to tell you that the toilet has backed up, I suppose you tell her the problem is just "anecdotal" and to call again when a certified plumber has confirmed it.
No, I am qualified to make the assessment that the toilet is indeed plugged, and and more importantly, I an qualified provide the necessary corrective actions. Plus I am too cheap to call a plumber. :)
2018 LEAF SL
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Prior LEAF:
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Delivery May 23 2014
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Stoaty
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Re: How should Nissan respond to dropping capacity in Phoeni

Wed Jun 20, 2012 6:23 pm

OrientExpress wrote:Everyone, I respect your opinions, but you have to admit, that is what they are. The data presented here is anecdotal and interpreted by people that mean well, but they are simply lay interpretations that are biased by personal expectations and conjecture.
I don't think presenting your opinion as fact is helping you any here. We have more than enough data to say that there is a problem which Nissan either did not know about or did not disclose. Your statement that there isn't a problem does not make it so. Fortunately, you are not the final arbiter of "fact", although you appear to believe otherwise. It's fine to say you disagree with us or our interpretation of the available data, but beyond that...
2011 Leaf with 62,000 miles given to Nephew
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LEAFfan
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Re: How should Nissan respond to dropping capacity in Phoeni

Wed Jun 20, 2012 6:24 pm

[quote="shrink"]
Thanks for the input, Gerry. I still have all 12 capacity bars, too, but there's definitely some loss of range. LEAFfan's ScanGuage read 85.7% on my car about a month ago after a 100% charge. I'm sure he'd be willing to take a reading on your car as well if you're interested.
[/quote]

Yes, I would be happy to test your car. I will be surprised if it doesn't show at least a 6% loss. That's the lowest I've tested so far.
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GerryAZ
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Re: How should Nissan respond to dropping capacity in Phoeni

Wed Jun 20, 2012 6:39 pm

edatoakrun wrote:
drees wrote:
GerryAZ wrote:I have recorded charging energy from shutdown to 100% several times over the past year and have not seen a significant decrease.
This is really the best way to measure capacity - a discharge/range test and a charge test (measure full charge energy). It could be more reliable than the GID as the GID is likely compensated by some unknown factors.

A discharge test would be done over a known loop which is easy to repeat and preferably done down to at least VLBW if not turtle. Before the test, charge to 100%...

A charge test would drain the battery to LBW, VLBW or turtle and then record the amount of energy it takes to charge back up to 100%...
Or just use Carwings Electricity Consumption kWh use report for the same test loop.

More accurate, IMO, as the recharge will probably not be to exactly the same capacity level.

My own capacity test here:

http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.p ... 52#p207152" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Although I am trying to correlate Carwings data with my recorded data into a suitable spreadsheet to post, preliminary indications are that Carwings is very inaccurate for my car. Carwings records the mileage reasonable accurately so it must be getting data from all of my trips, but its recorded energy consumption is much lower than actual. The miles/kWh on the instrument panel, energy display on the touchscreen, and Carwings are also wildly optimistic. Instrument panel typically shows 3.7 to 4.2 and touchscreen typically shows 0.1 higher. Carwings typically says over 5 miles/kWh (sometimes it says over 6). Actual miles/kWh are consistently in the 3.0 range.

I would not mind taking a Gid reading, but I live in far north Phoenix so getting the meter and the car at 100% charge together may be difficult. I will get a LeafSCAN as soon as possible. I may go ahead and order a Gid meter kit from Gary just to get something sooner.

Gerry
Gerry
Silver LEAF 2011 SL rear ended (totaled) by in-attentive driver 1/4/2015 at 50,422 miles
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grommet
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Re: How should Nissan respond to dropping capacity in Phoeni

Wed Jun 20, 2012 7:12 pm

GerryAZ, if CARWINGS is inaccurate (under reporting kWh used)... your car has the old telematics firmware. It's really quite awful. The undocumented fix for this undocumented bug is only in TB-11-041 (which is last year's "telematics connection fix").

leafkabob
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Re: How should Nissan respond to dropping capacity in Phoeni

Wed Jun 20, 2012 7:21 pm

OrientExpress wrote:I would also recommend that you revisit the owners documentation that came with your car, including the LEAF customer disclosure form that you were presented with prior to actually purchasing or leasing the car. Those documents will help you calibrate what your expectations should be.
You're bumming me out OrientExpress. I didn't realize that literature warned me about this situation in advance. So I dug out the documents and looked at both and for the life of me I can't find anything in there that says because I live in Phoenix I should expect a faster gradual battery degredation rate than the rest of the Leaf buying world. I'm sure it is in there but I'm not seeing it. Can you point me to it? ;)
Kelly

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