DaveinOlyWA
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Re: 2013 Nissan Leaf Electric Car To Use New, Cheaper Batter

Mon Aug 27, 2012 5:31 pm

to what extent was NEC's alliance to Nissan? and how can this be possible? we have already had several comments from this board saying a chemistry change was not possible :?

but then again, its been 2 years and one of the big sticking points still seems to be battery supplies. if Toshiba can produce the numbers why not go with them?

and i think the timing of the announcement is key. pretty convenient to put this out a few weeks before the TN battery plant launch at which time the change in vendor would have been obvious or is the TN plant still NEC?

this article creates more questions than it solves. if this is the case then this has obviously been in the works for quite a while to have already designed the change into the 2013 MY

no engineer here but not sure i understand why it would be so expensive to change suppliers
2011 SL; 44,598 mi, 87% SOH. 2013 S; 44,840 mi, 91% SOH. 2016 S30; 29,413 mi, 99% SOH. 2018 S; 25,185 mi, SOH 92.23%. 2019 S Plus; 15, 235.1mi, 93.12% SOH
My Blog; http://daveinolywa.blogspot.com" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

thankyouOB
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Leaf Number: 1442
Location: Coastal LA

Re: 2013 Nissan Leaf Electric Car To Use New, Cheaper Batter

Mon Aug 27, 2012 5:44 pm

no one knows a thing.
that will increase the speculation.

take everything with a pinch of this:
http://cfa.lmu.edu/labandartgallery/exh ... ssrelease/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
may reserve/delivery 4/30/11
--
ECOtality/LADWP/ Blink 4/4/11
--
Gardena Nissan, msrp -1k
red SL with etec L3
SOLAR POWERED since 2008

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Nubo
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Joined: Fri May 28, 2010 11:01 am
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Location: Vallejo, CA

Re: 2013 Nissan Leaf Electric Car To Use New, Cheaper Batter

Mon Aug 27, 2012 6:19 pm

Whether speculation or fantasy, I'd love to see this lead to:

[harp music]

Retroactive battery warranty
All old-style packs replaced at onset of 1 capacity-bar loss, or at end of 3 years, whichever comes first.

[/harp music]

This would make capacity-sufferers whole, reward early-adopters, and prevent a disaster with lease returns.
I noticed you're still working with polymers.

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LakeLeaf
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Re: 2013 Nissan Leaf Electric Car To Use New, Cheaper Batter

Mon Aug 27, 2012 6:23 pm

I'd think that minor changes in battery chemistry would be possible, maybe require a few software changes and maybe even some minor hardware and/or packaging changes.

As the article mentions - Nissan and the US taxpayer has this big investment in the battery plant in Tennessee. I'd have thought that the insides of the plant would be mostly in place, and would be mostly built by the battery manufacturer rather then by Nissan. Maybe this isn't the case at all - maybe the US Nissan plant just licenses the technology and manufactures it itself making a change in licensee a possibility?

bruce5
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Re: 2013 Nissan Leaf Electric Car To Use New, Cheaper Batter

Mon Aug 27, 2012 6:47 pm

I don't see the model "Leaf" mentioned in the article (except in recounting recent production levels). As far as I can tell, this could be the Infinity M35, Nissan Fuga, a hybrid Altima maybe...
Am I missing something? Here is the original article that I believe greencarreports.com is citing. http://www.yomiuri.co.jp/dy/business/T120827003564.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Last edited by bruce5 on Mon Aug 27, 2012 7:07 pm, edited 1 time in total.

DaveinOlyWA
Posts: 15304
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Leaf Number: 319862
Location: Olympia, WA
Contact: Website

Re: 2013 Nissan Leaf Electric Car To Use New, Cheaper Batter

Mon Aug 27, 2012 6:56 pm

no article cited
2011 SL; 44,598 mi, 87% SOH. 2013 S; 44,840 mi, 91% SOH. 2016 S30; 29,413 mi, 99% SOH. 2018 S; 25,185 mi, SOH 92.23%. 2019 S Plus; 15, 235.1mi, 93.12% SOH
My Blog; http://daveinolywa.blogspot.com" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

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RegGuheert
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Re: 2013 Nissan Leaf Electric Car To Use New, Cheaper Batter

Mon Aug 27, 2012 7:10 pm

bruce5 wrote:I don't see the model "Leaf" mentioned in the article (except in recounting recent production levels). As far as I can tell, this could be the Infinity M35, Nissan Fuga, a hybrid Altima maybe...
Am I missing something? Here is the original article that I believe greencarreports.com is citing. http://www.yomiuri.co.jp/dy/business/T120827003564.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Good catch! In fact, it doesn't even say "EV". Since we are talking about Hitachi, perhaps it is for a new PHEV.
RegGuheert
2011 Leaf SL Demo vehicle
10K mi. on 041413; 20K mi. (55.7Ah) on 080714; 30K mi. (52.0Ah) on 123015; 40K mi. (49.8Ah) on 020817; 50K mi. (47.2Ah) on 120717; 60K mi. (43.66Ah) on 091918.
Enphase Inverter Measured MTBF: M190, M215, M250, S280

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DaveEV
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Re: 2013 Nissan Leaf Electric Car To Use New, Cheaper Batter

Tue Aug 28, 2012 2:12 am

If you go to Hitachi's automobile lithium battery page, it's interesting that one of the applications is the Nissan Tino Hybrid released in 2000 and sold on a limited basis in Japan...

I can understand switching to Hitachi if their cost is lower, but then what are they going to do with the battery plants they are just finishing in Tennessee and the UK?

An interesting article from a couple years ago:
April 9, 2010: New Hitachi Li-ion batteries to last ten years
The new battery uses more manganese for the positive electrode and reduces the use of the far more expensive cobalt. Hitachi says the new cathode material is the composite oxide lithium manganese spinel (LIMn2O4), a crystalline material that is much more stable than the previous cathode material. Its stability makes the cathode more resistant to attack by the electrolyte, and inhibits leaching of cathode material into the electrolyte (both processes that eventually stop the battery holding a charge). The new cathode material extends the life of the battery to ten years from the more usual average working life of five years, and it also boosts the battery’s capacity. The battery will also be cheaper than current lithium-ion batteries because of the reduced use of cobalt.

Read more at: http://phys.org/news190018064.html#jCp" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
What's interesting here is that the chemistry is very similar to Nissan's current batteries. I wonder if Nissan may perhaps simply license Hitachi's secret sauce and use that formula in it's new plants?

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TonyWilliams
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Re: 2013 Nissan Leaf Electric Car To Use New, Cheaper Batter

Tue Aug 28, 2012 5:39 am

bruce5 wrote:I don't see the model "Leaf" mentioned in the article (except in recounting recent production levels). As far as I can tell, this could be the Infinity M35, Nissan Fuga, a hybrid Altima maybe...
Am I missing something? Here is the original article that I believe greencarreports.com is citing. http://www.yomiuri.co.jp/dy/business/T120827003564.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Good reference. So good, that I've copied the article here, in case it gets "lost" in the big, bad Internet.

*************

Yasuaki Kobayashi and Takashi Asako / Yomiuri Shimbun Staff Writers


Nissan Motor Co. will adopt lithium-ion batteries produced by Hitachi, Ltd., a non-affiliated company, for its eco-friendly model to be marketed in the United States for 2013, Nissan officials have said.

Although Nissan has already established a lithium-ion battery company jointly with NEC Group, it intends to obtain batteries at lower prices from Hitachi, the officials said.

If the move by Nissan is successful, pressure on battery manufacturers to cut prices is expected to intensify, industry sources said.

In 1999, Nissan President Carlos Ghosn, then the chief executive officer, narrowed down steel material suppliers and pressured them to reduce prices as part of his corporate rehabilitation project.

The action was dubbed "Ghosn shock," and is believed to have triggered the steel industry's reorganization, including the management integration of Kawasaki Steel Corp. and NKK Corp.

Lithium-ion batteries are now oversupplied due to sluggish sales of electric vehicles. The current situation may trigger a second "Ghosn shock," after the example of the steel materials' case, the sources said.

*******

Review of procurement step

So far, auto manufacturers have avoided depending on electronic manufacturers for production of core battery components in technological development, and have chosen joint development through companies such as NEC and Panasonic Corp.

The battery makers could enjoy the advantage of supplying batteries to partner automobile firms. Such a situation could improve both the capacity and safety of the batteries produced.

However, the situation has changed as mass production of batteries progressed.

For auto companies, limiting the suppliers means no price competition. It became impossible to procure batteries cheaply by making several firms compete in prices.

Hitachi does not form partnerships with specific car companies and has supplied lithium-ion batteries for hybrid cars of U.S. giant General Motors.

Mitsubishi Motors Corp. started to obtain batteries only for low-priced models of electric vehicles from Toshiba Corp., not from a company jointly established with GS Yuasa Corp.

Honda Motor Co. also adopted Toshiba's batteries for the Fit EV, to be marketed this month.

*******

Fear of price plunge

Electronic manufacturers have been disappointed at the sluggish sales of electric vehicles because they expected to supply a huge amount of batteries to auto manufacturers.

The 2011 sales of Nissan's electric vehicle Leaf were little more than 20,000 units, only 40 percent of its goal. The fiscal 2011 domestic sales of MMC's i-MiEV was almost the same as that from the previous year.

"Clearly, the batteries are oversupplied," a source in the electric machinery industry said.

Furthermore, South Korean companies have been aggressively trying to sell their products, with low prices as the main tactic.

"The performance quality of their batteries is almost identical to that of Japanese batteries," an automotive industry source said.

South Korean firms obtained a string of orders from GM, Renault and BMW.

South Korean companies had a 41 percent share of the world's lithium-ion battery market from January to March 2012, while Japanese companies had a 33 percent share.

If price competition progresses while electric vehicle sales fail to rise, battery prices apparently will continue to fall and their manufacturers will not be able to meet their projected profit goals.

The government set a goal that Japan would have a 50 percent share of the world's storage battery market, including lithium-ion batteries, by 2020 as part of its Comprehensive Strategy for the Rebirth of Japan, which the Cabinet approved in late July. But the price competition with overseas manufacturers has been fierce, and it has become a difficult goal to achieve.

(Aug. 28, 2012)

bruce5
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Re: 2013 Nissan Leaf Electric Car To Use New, Cheaper Batter

Tue Aug 28, 2012 5:48 am

If you look at the comments under the article on greencarreports.com you can see the author concede that he messed up.

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