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walterbays
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Re: 9/17/13: ECOtality files for bankrupcy and gets Nissan l

Wed Oct 23, 2013 5:33 pm

TomT wrote:I know it is a concept unpopular with many - and frankly I am in that camp - but I don't see QC being sustainable for much less... I would like to see it based on time or Kwh though, rather than straight time... Perhaps a minimum charge plus actual usage time or Kwh..
Fee per time is best because that encourages drivers to take what they need and then make the charger available for someone else, rather than remaining to get that last 20%. The quick ramp down of charging rate is why EVoasis' 25 kW charger is almost as quick to 80% as Blink's 50 kW chargers.

Fee per kWh would somewhat encourage people to camp on chargers when they don't really need the extra charge. Fee per session strongly encourages people to camp on chargers. (I only need 40% but it's all-you-can-eat so I'm going for 90%.)

But if you thought nothing could be worse than Blink's fee per session, here comes evGo's fee per month. One payment for unlimited charging all month. To get your money's worth, charge if you need it or if you might need it. Heck, skip charging at home to save $1 and charge instead at evGo - it's already paid for.

PS, I just looked at a little trip this weekend with Blink QC. Based on my SOC when I arrive and going only to 80% I'd end up paying over 10X as much per kWh as I do at home. But my total cost for the trip, enabled by the QC, would be less than half as much as driving the gas car. As usual.

ITestStuff
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Re: 9/17/13: ECOtality files for bankrupcy and gets Nissan l

Wed Oct 23, 2013 6:17 pm

ObjetDart wrote:In order to be fair and reasonable, the charging cost *must* be based on kWh delivered
Not legal in some regions. So either there's lobbying done to get this changed, or it's off the table (IF a company is looking for a consistent billing method across their platform).
A flat rate across the country is absurd when the cost of electricity varies from state to state from as little as $.07/kwh to as high as $0.50/kWh at peak times.
Absurd to you, but it's easy to market and no complex billing systems needed :)
Look, you can argue about what is and what is not a sustainable business model, but at the end of the day, consumers are naturally going to compare the cost of the QC to charging at home. If they feel like they'll have to pay 5X or 10X as much to recharge on the go, they are going to feel gouged and they are going to use QC stations as a last resort emergency measure only, and the QC network will fail, possibly taking the whole EV model with it.
As early adopters, we need to help educate people that they can't think this way. They have to recognize that there are costs to maintain the infrastructure. If we all want our cars to have a reasonable effective range, then we need this infrastructure. The people that absolutely refuse to pay for QC's because they don't like the current business models are being penny wise and pound foolish.

I don't like the current model either, and would certainly prefer to see something that's kWh based (both for L2 and QC). If we can't have that, then I'd prefer a time-based charge over session-based or subscription.

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DaveEV
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Re: 9/17/13: ECOtality files for bankrupcy and gets Nissan l

Wed Oct 23, 2013 6:32 pm

ObjetDart wrote:In order to be fair and reasonable, the charging cost *must* be based on kWh delivered, as well as the local cost of electricity. A flat rate across the country is absurd when the cost of electricity varies from state to state from as little as $.07/kwh to as high as $0.50/kWh at peak times. $5 per QC in California may not seem so bad but here in Oregon (where we have a lot of Blink QC stations), that is a 600% markup over retail residential rates (assuming a typical 50-60% recharge per session.)
Oh I definitely agree that a flat country-wide rate is absurd. But I don't think that electricity service is as cheap as you think it might be even in Eugene, OR, so let's price it out:

http://www.eweb.org/electricrates/mediumgeneralservice" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Let's assume a single 50 kW CHAdeMO that be fed off 3-phase.
$50.85 / month just to plug in.
$6.50 / kW demand charge (50 kW = $325/mo)
$5.629 / kWh energy charge

A busy CHAdeMO might serve 5 cars a day on average (about 150 / month) and deliver about 10 kWh per charge on average (1500 kWh)

So your total cost is about $461/month or about $3/charge, just for the electricity.

Now if you factor in $25k per station to install (after subsidies) and you charge $5 per charge on average ($0.50/kWh), that leaves you $2 profit from each charge to try to pay off your station, or about $300/mo. That's going to take you 83 months (7 years) just to break even on your investment and doesn't include inevitable maintenance/service that will be required during that time.

I can tell you right now, that you aren't going to find very many business owners to take you up on that offer, unless they have a way to get more money out of you through other purchases while you wait to charge or before/after you charge (like a typical service station model - break even on the service, make money on the snacks).

johnrhansen
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Re: 9/17/13: ECOtality files for bankrupcy and gets Nissan l

Wed Oct 23, 2013 7:57 pm

It's too bad they can't make high speed chargers that work off of regular single phase power. A 200 amp service could supply 36 KW. It still would charge 6 times faster, but be cheaper to acquire and operate.
2013 S model with quick charge package.
AV 30 amp level 2 EVSE, Bosch PowerMax 30 Amp EVSE, EVSE upgraded EVSE.

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DaveEV
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Re: 9/17/13: ECOtality files for bankrupcy and gets Nissan l

Wed Oct 23, 2013 8:52 pm

johnrhansen wrote:It's too bad they can't make high speed chargers that work off of regular single phase power. A 200 amp service could supply 36 KW. It still would charge 6 times faster, but be cheaper to acquire and operate.
You mean like the Andromeda CHAdeMO stations?
http://andromedapower.com/ORCA__Mobile.php" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Power input:
AC (208/240/400/480V; 50/60Hz; 1, 2 or 3-phases)
DC (200-700V)

pkulak
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Re: 9/17/13: ECOtality files for bankrupcy and gets Nissan l

Wed Oct 23, 2013 9:14 pm

johnrhansen wrote:It's too bad they can't make high speed chargers that work off of regular single phase power. A 200 amp service could supply 36 KW. It still would charge 6 times faster, but be cheaper to acquire and operate.
200 amps? That cable would be as thick as my leg!

johnrhansen
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Re: 9/17/13: ECOtality files for bankrupcy and gets Nissan l

Wed Oct 23, 2013 9:18 pm

0000 GAUGE aluminum. about as thick as your thumb...It's what goes into your house service.
pkulak wrote:
johnrhansen wrote:It's too bad they can't make high speed chargers that work off of regular single phase power. A 200 amp service could supply 36 KW. It still would charge 6 times faster, but be cheaper to acquire and operate.
200 amps? That cable would be as thick as my leg!
2013 S model with quick charge package.
AV 30 amp level 2 EVSE, Bosch PowerMax 30 Amp EVSE, EVSE upgraded EVSE.

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DaveEV
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Re: 9/17/13: ECOtality files for bankrupcy and gets Nissan l

Wed Oct 23, 2013 9:20 pm

pkulak wrote:200 amps? That cable would be as thick as my leg!
No, really, that would be 3/0 -> 250 Kcil copper wire depending on the insulation temperature rating, between 0.4-0.5". Pretty thin.

Look at Tesla Supercharger cables. Pretty thick, but not as thick as your leg. And those are pushing about 300A!

johnrhansen
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Re: 9/17/13: ECOtality files for bankrupcy and gets Nissan l

Wed Oct 23, 2013 9:21 pm

looks like the max it can do with single phase is 25 KW..
drees wrote:
johnrhansen wrote:It's too bad they can't make high speed chargers that work off of regular single phase power. A 200 amp service could supply 36 KW. It still would charge 6 times faster, but be cheaper to acquire and operate.
You mean like the Andromeda CHAdeMO stations?
http://andromedapower.com/ORCA__Mobile.php" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Power input:
AC (208/240/400/480V; 50/60Hz; 1, 2 or 3-phases)
DC (200-700V)
2013 S model with quick charge package.
AV 30 amp level 2 EVSE, Bosch PowerMax 30 Amp EVSE, EVSE upgraded EVSE.

ObjetDart
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Re: 9/17/13: ECOtality files for bankrupcy and gets Nissan l

Wed Oct 23, 2013 10:34 pm

drees wrote: Oh I definitely agree that a flat country-wide rate is absurd. But I don't think that electricity service is as cheap as you think it might be even in Eugene, OR, so let's price it out:

http://www.eweb.org/electricrates/mediumgeneralservice" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Let's assume a single 50 kW CHAdeMO that be fed off 3-phase.
$50.85 / month just to plug in.
$6.50 / kW demand charge (50 kW = $325/mo)
$5.629 / kWh energy charge

A busy CHAdeMO might serve 5 cars a day on average (about 150 / month) and deliver about 10 kWh per charge on average (1500 kWh)

So your total cost is about $461/month or about $3/charge, just for the electricity.

Now if you factor in $25k per station to install (after subsidies) and you charge $5 per charge on average ($0.50/kWh), that leaves you $2 profit from each charge to try to pay off your station, or about $300/mo. That's going to take you 83 months (7 years) just to break even on your investment and doesn't include inevitable maintenance/service that will be required during that time.

I can tell you right now, that you aren't going to find very many business owners to take you up on that offer, unless they have a way to get more money out of you through other purchases while you wait to charge or before/after you charge (like a typical service station model - break even on the service, make money on the snacks).
This is a very interesting breakdown of the costs involved in operating a QC station!

But, in the end, all it says to me is that there is no viable business model in QC, since my point was consumers don't know any of this, all they are going to do is compare it to the cost they pay for charging at home. QCs are a hard enough sell as it is, when you have to carefully plan your trip just so you can stop every hour and recharge for 20-30 minutes, vs drive anywhere you want and stop once every five hours for 10 minutes in an ICE. For EVs to succeed, QC must be priced in a manner that won't make people feel gouged in addition to everything else. Whether or not it's actually economically feasible to do so doesn't change that. Maybe it means government subsidies will be required for the foreseeable future, until EV adoption rates are finally high enough that QC can start to benefit from the economies of scale that the gasoline infrastructure enjoys. Or perhaps Nissan needs to follow the Tesla model and just include free access to the QC network with the car.
2013 SV Metallic Slate w/ quick charge package

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