$5000 Blink EVSE?

I just got my quote for installation of the Blink EVSE under the EV Project and it was almost $5000, but discounted by the $1200 into the mid-$3000 range. It's still more than the quote from AV, which I thought was outrageous. I had to jump through hoops to get my SV order upgraded to an SL at Nissan's urging in order to take advantage of the incentives of the EV Project, the biggest one being the $1200 discount on the EVSE, but now the discounted unit is more expensive than the non-discounted one. I could be out the ~$2000 for the upgrade to SL+QCP and have to refund the $700 for the QCP if I drop out of the EVP and have no EVSE beyond the level 1. The Homelink and backup camera are nice, but I wouldn't have paid $2K for them. This stinks. Nissan called me to encouraged me to upgrade; I feel like it was a bait and switch.

Has anyone else had this experience? Is it possible to get Ecotality to use the electricians who quoted for AV? If the $1200 was taken off their quote I would be satisfied. If I drop out of the EV Project will I get hit for the $700 QCP (that is currently - pun intended - useless)? The company that quoted the Blink is Sprig Electric. Of course I have called the Blink network support line and they suggested I forward the quote to them, which I have done, but they have screwed everything up so far. They just sent me a second membership card and had an email address and phone number I've never heard of down as mine, but the correct street address.

I don't understand why the quotes are so high. My panel is at the opposite corner of the house from the garage, but I don't need a new panel or trenching. The run through the attic shouldn't be so hard, and in fact there is already an unused 220V Romex cable running to the garage now for dryer (but we have a gas dryer).

Any advice or thoughts?

How long was the run? Can they run conduit outside for less? Ask if it's possible to get a second quote, assuming the EV project has a second contractor in your area. As far as the dryer circuit...unfortunately, most dryer outlets are 30a, and the Blink needs a 40a circuit. If it turns out you can't get it done cheaper, the obvious thing to do is to either get an EVSE upgrade (www.evseupgrade.com) or one of the SPX adjustable units (http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=26&t=1442&start=60) and simply connect it to the unused dryer outlet. You'll spend hundreds instead of thousands. As far as the SV/SL thing goes, you might try talking to the dealer. It's possible he'd be open to selling you an SV orphan in return for you orphaning the SL.

Can you get your own electrician to add the correct breaker your panel and run the romex through the attic and connect to your wiring in the garage? Get some recommendations for good, reasonably priced electricians and have three of them quote on the job and pick the one you feel best about. I bet you can get the job done for less than you are being quoted for that portion of the Blink quote. Then have the Blink people come out and re-bid on the remaining project of connecting to your wiring that is already in place.

Yikes, I have no good advice for you, but I can commiserate. That really sucks. It's amazing how ridiculous the installation costs are. My solar panel guy says AV takes $1200 of the installation fee, so the electricians get zero unless there's extra stuff like a new electrical panel to install. I got the solar guys to install a new 240V run for me for free as part of my PV install. I don't see why you can't just use the existing 240V you have. How many amps is it? From the nightmare you're describing + the disastrous hackfest inside the Blink EVSE I've seen, now I feel lucky that my zip code was excluded from the EV project. This is your tax dollars (DOE) at work! So why do they give you a free QCP port for being in the EV project if the Blink doesn't support the QCP??

davewill said:

How long was the run? Can they run conduit outside for less? Ask if it's possible to get a second quote, assuming the EV project has a second contractor in your area. As far as the dryer circuit...unfortunately, most dryer outlets are 30a, and the Blink needs a 40a circuit. If it turns out you can't get it done cheaper, the obvious thing to do is to either get an EVSE upgrade (http://www.evseupgrade.com) or one of the SPX adjustable units (http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=26&t=1442&start=60) and simply connect it to the unused dryer outlet. You'll spend hundreds instead of thousands. As far as the SV/SL thing goes, you might try talking to the dealer. It's possible he'd be open to selling you an SV orphan in return for you orphaning the SL.

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The dryer circuit is 30A. Does that mean the romex cannot be used? Do they use a different gauge wire? I would think that if the gauge is sufficient to handle 40A then they could use the existing romex to the wall of the garage, put in some kind of junction box there and run conduit the rest of the way. Unfortunately the dryer plug is in an inconvenient location - behind the dryer. I don't think my wife would agree to be stepping over the cord all the time; she'd make me do all the laundry. Not acceptable. But if the romex there now can be used, the conduit can run to the opposite wall just as easily. There is only one 120V circuit in the garage so I can't use the upgraded EVSE that does the two-plug trick, but maybe the adapter with existing 220 would work except that still leaves the problem of being in the way. I would guess it wouldn't be much cheaper to have an electrician run a new 120V out there than running the 240V. It's about 100 feet through the attic, but there' no way I would approve running conduit around the outside of the house. In fact that would probably double the length considering the configuration of the house and would be ugly as hell. Since the AV people came in much lower, I have to believe there is a cheaper solution out there. I'll wait for Blink to tell me what they can offer. It would be ironic if I ended up switching with the dealer for a SV since that was what was delivered for me originally and I orphaned that in order to get the SL they promised me. What may work is to stick with Level 1 (no plug location problem) until I really need the 200v, which won't be often, and run that from the dryer with the modified EVSE only at bedtime after laundry is not an issue.

30A dryer run is not sufficient as davewill says.

As Boomer suggests - I would get a couple bids from electricians to install the 40A breaker and wiring to where the Blink will be installed - then have your EVproject contractor bid on the Blink install which should fall within the $1200 costing you nothing additional.

I have a hard time believing that a 8ga romex run should cost more than $1000.

When we did our PV system in 2009 we dropped a new 220v 30amp circuit using 12g into the garage for our charger. We had sized it for a dryer since at that time Nissan wasn't saying how big the circuit would have to be. Turns out when the EV Project guys came out in 2010 they dropped a 10 gauge (or maybe even 8 gauge, I don't recall now), 40 amp line right next to the new one we had installed the year previous. According to the installer, the Blink will draw 29 amps, which is too close to the 30 amps offered by our smaller gauge circuit. Remember that the rating of your circuit will be reduced the further you are from the source - so if your panel is on the other side of the house from your garage they might even need to go down to a larger gauge circuit than normal. We got lucky- our panel is about 8 feet from our charger.

If you can find a used Clipper Creek charger it might be worth looking into. The EV Project installed that one first before the Blink was ready. It was ugly but rock solid IHMO. The Leaf doesn't need any of the "brains" the Blink supposedly possesses. Then get a quote from a regular electrician.

Good luck!

-john

drees said:

30A dryer run is not sufficient as davewill says.

As Boomer suggests - I would get a couple bids from electricians to install the 40A breaker and wiring to where the Blink will be installed - then have your EVproject contractor bid on the Blink install which should fall within the $1200 costing you nothing additional.

I have a hard time believing that a 8ga romex run should cost more than $1000.

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Yep. This is the correct approach.

Work with Sprig to get the install to a point where it meets their budgeted cost by eTEC. Then get your own contractor to finish off the rest of the electrical work. Or do the other way around if you believe Sprig is trying to rip you off; get your electrician to wire up to a point where Sprig comes in to finish off the work. You need to have a VERY CLEAR plan and visualization of how everything would fit together.

The problem is Sprig is contracted to eTEC under a "Union" contract agreement. As part of the Union agreement, the per hour labor cost is very high. So, when they quoted the extended portion of the installation, they used the Union rates.

I paid an electrician to come and inspect the box and existing lines and even put in a dedicated 20 amp line for L1 charging, not knowing that having the electrician's assessment would dramatically speed up the install of the Blink, as in a few days later. Via the EV project, a 40A breaker and long romex line was put in from one corner of the house to the garage at the other corner of the house. Aside from paying the initial electrician, I paid nothing for the Blink install. It probably helped that there was a dropped ceiling that they could run the line through without doing much damage.

I do recall someone posting here that they balked at the extra charge and either got it eliminated or significantly reduced... $5K makes no sense to me, with or without the subsidy.

g

#1 I agree with recommendation to get your own electrician to install a circuit. I would suggest considering having them install a subpanel in the garage if the costs are not unreasonable and there is place for it. A 40A circuit would use 8 AWG wire. (125' of NM 8/3 cable is about $200 based on a quick search). Where are you in Silicon Valley? I can recommend an electrician.

#2 The dryer is circuit can be used to charge the LEAF at the full speed that the car supports (3.3 kW) with a Rev. 2 upgraded EVSE or the SPX (switched to a lower current setting). It might be possible to install the Blink on a lower current circuit.

Your costs may be deductible, consult a tax adviser.

arnold

Uccello said:

When we did our PV system in 2009 we dropped a new 220v 30amp circuit using 12g into the garage for our charger. We had sized it for a dryer since at that time Nissan wasn't saying how big the circuit would have to be. Turns out when the EV Project guys came out in 2010 they dropped a 10 gauge (or maybe even 8 gauge, I don't recall now), 40 amp line right next to the new one we had installed the year previous. According to the installer, the Blink will draw 29 amps, which is too close to the 30 amps offered by our smaller gauge circuit. Remember that the rating of your circuit will be reduced the further you are from the source - so if your panel is on the other side of the house from your garage they might even need to go down to a larger gauge circuit than normal. We got lucky- our panel is about 8 feet from our charger.

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How is it possible for the Blink to draw 29 amps when charging a Leaf? The Leaf maxes out at 16A. Isn't a 30A line good enough for the Leaf regardless of which EVSE he uses?

lincomatic said:

How is it possible for the Blink to draw 29 amps when charging a Leaf? The Leaf maxes out at 16A. Isn't a 30A line good enough for the Leaf regardless of which EVSE he uses?

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Yes, but since the Blink is capable of pulling 29 amps with the right car plugged into it, you need to have the Blink plugged into a 40A circuit.

mxp said:

drees said:

30A dryer run is not sufficient as davewill says.

As Boomer suggests - I would get a couple bids from electricians to install the 40A breaker and wiring to where the Blink will be installed - then have your EVproject contractor bid on the Blink install which should fall within the $1200 costing you nothing additional.

I have a hard time believing that a 8ga romex run should cost more than $1000.

Click to expand...

Yep. This is the correct approach.

Work with Sprig to get the install to a point where it meets their budgeted cost by eTEC. Then get your own contractor to finish off the rest of the electrical work. Or do the other way around if you believe Sprig is trying to rip you off; get your electrician to wire up to a point where Sprig comes in to finish off the work. You need to have a VERY CLEAR plan and visualization of how everything would fit together.

The problem is Sprig is contracted to eTEC under a "Union" contract agreement. As part of the Union agreement, the per hour labor cost is very high. So, when they quoted the extended portion of the installation, they used the Union rates.

Click to expand...

I've seen this info about 40 amp circuit for a Blink posted repeatedly on this site and need to let everyone know it is completely wrong. The Blink unit is adjustable and can be set to draw between 12 and 30 amps. It is perfectly acceptable to install a Blink on less than a 40 amp circuit. Since our Leaf's have a max draw of 16 amps at 220, a 20 amp circuit is perfectly fine. I have an existing 20 amp 220 circuit in my garage I use for my air compressor that could have been used for my Blink. In fact the installer really, really wanted to use it because it would have meant he wouldn't have had to crawl under the house. Since the EV project covered most of the expense, and I still wanted to be able to use my compressor, I told them they had to install the new line.

In Rat's case, it sounds to me like you've got an installer that has dollar sign's in his eyes. The only reason you wouldn't be able to use the dryer outlet is if the EV Project in your area requires a second meter, and other than LA, I haven't heard of that being a requirement (and I guess it's still up in the air there). Even then they could probably still make use of your existing wiring.

kevin672 said:

I've seen this info about 40 amp circuit for a Blink posted repeatedly on this site and need to let everyone know it is completely wrong. The Blink unit is adjustable and can be set to draw between 12 and 30 amps. It is perfectly acceptable to install a Blink on less than a 40 amp circuit. Since our Leaf's have a max draw of 16 amps at 220, a 20 amp circuit is perfectly fine. I have an existing 20 amp 220 circuit in my garage I use for my air compressor that could have been used for my Blink. In fact the installer really, really wanted to use it because it would have meant he wouldn't have had to crawl under the house. Since the EV project covered most of the expense, and I still wanted to be able to use my compressor, I told them they had to install the new line.

In Rat's case, it sounds to me like you've got an installer that has dollar sign's in his eyes. The only reason you wouldn't be able to use the dryer outlet is if the EV Project in your area requires a second meter, and other than LA, I haven't heard of that being a requirement (and I guess it's still up in the air there). Even then they could probably still make use of your existing wiring.

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Well, now THAT'S a new piece of information, and definitely worth persuing. If true, the only other barrier to using the Blink on that circuit would be whether eliminating his dryer outlet would pass the local building code.

davewill said:

kevin672 said:

I've seen this info about 40 amp circuit for a Blink posted repeatedly on this site and need to let everyone know it is completely wrong. The Blink unit is adjustable and can be set to draw between 12 and 30 amps. It is perfectly acceptable to install a Blink on less than a 40 amp circuit. Since our Leaf's have a max draw of 16 amps at 220, a 20 amp circuit is perfectly fine. I have an existing 20 amp 220 circuit in my garage I use for my air compressor that could have been used for my Blink. In fact the installer really, really wanted to use it because it would have meant he wouldn't have had to crawl under the house. Since the EV project covered most of the expense, and I still wanted to be able to use my compressor, I told them they had to install the new line.

In Rat's case, it sounds to me like you've got an installer that has dollar sign's in his eyes. The only reason you wouldn't be able to use the dryer outlet is if the EV Project in your area requires a second meter, and other than LA, I haven't heard of that being a requirement (and I guess it's still up in the air there). Even then they could probably still make use of your existing wiring.

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Well, now THAT'S a new piece of information, and definitely worth persuing. If true, the only other barrier to using the Blink on that circuit would be whether eliminating his dryer outlet would pass the local building code.

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It's page 18 of the install manual. Then in the settings you can set it for the lower current ratings. My installer said "We dial them back to 20 amps without a problem all the time." I checked to make sure they had left mine at 30 amps, they did.

kevin672 said:

It's page 18 of the install manual. Then in the settings you can set it for the lower current ratings. My installer said "We dial them back to 20 amps without a problem all the time." I checked to make sure they had left mine at 30 amps, they did.

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That is pretty awesome right there - did not realize that! The instruction manual doesn't appear to say HOW to dial it down, though. Anyone know?

I didn't know about the installation manual, but I already considered the possibility and I've asked the EV Project if the Blink can be adjusted down to an amperage safe for the existing romex so the unit can be installed without a new wire. I'm waiting for a response. Thanks to all for the suggestions.

I've learned that the requirement for the 40A line is an Ecotality requirement, not code and not a technical requirement of the device. Or at least at this stage it is Ecotality who is making the call. I don't know whether if they give the OK to the electrician there is any technical or legal (code) problem with doing it. The contract with DOE may have this spec as a requirement; we don't know what the research protocol is that is funding the EVP. I talked to Robert Whiteaker and he says he has been required to use 40A, too, and cannot avoid that unless Ecotality gives a waiver which so far has never happened. I am waiting for the decision on that. To me clearly the best solution is to use the existing wiring and 30A breaker and just set the unit to draw a safely limited amount of power. If that can't be done I will probably opt for the modified EVSE with adapter that will allow it to charge off 120V or off the 220V dryer plug, although I understand that requires an electrician to swap the existing dryer plug for a NEMA locking type. It would still involve cost for that plus another several hundred dollars (cost of new EVSE so I can keep one in car and another modified one in garage, adapter for the 120V plug, and cost of the modification), but I might just stick with Level 1 charging. That's what I originally planned to do, what I'm doing now, and it just hasn't been an issue yet. I would probably get another EVSE from Nissan since in the long run I want to carry one in the car and coiling it daily to carry then uncoiling to charge at night is not convenient. I don't know if there is any problem with dropping out of the EV Project due to cost. They've already paid for my $700 quick charge port. It would be ironic if they made me pay them back for that if I end up being able to charge only Level 1.

A question about the EV project. Why do they pay for your quick charge port? Doesn't the Blink only do L2 charging, or do they have a CHAdeMO charger in the works?

I suspect that they are just being forward thinking for the day when you might want to plug in something that draws more than 16 amps (like a 2013 Leaf with the 6.6 Kw charger, for example) and not have the EVSE throttle it...
I really don't have a problem with that.

Rat said:

I've learned that the requirement for the 40A line is an Ecotality requirement, not code and not a technical requirement of the device.

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