TimLee
Posts: 2811
Joined: Thu Jan 20, 2011 9:40 am
Delivery Date: 17 May 2011
Leaf Number: 2026
Location: Chattanooga, TN

Re: Leaf Spy Lite

Sat Feb 28, 2015 7:35 am

shalvak wrote:...Isn't it illicit to use an OBD-Connector during the drive without an ECE-marking? As far as i know you haven't the full insurance in case of an accident. I don't want to charge you, but is has to be 100 % "bulletproof" in my project, in order to realize it. Is there any work-around?
I have no idea about the requirements in your location in Germany.
Please update your profile location to Germany or specific town in Germany.

For LEAF Spy or LEAF Spy Pro to get data it has to query the CAR-CAN in real time to see and with Pro store the data.
All the vehicle CAN are still functioning and whatever information that the vehicle stores for purposes of post accident investigation that an insurance provider may require in some jurisdictions should still be there.

I am not familiar with the ECE marking, although it may be the European electronic standards organization certification.
Can you provide more info on ECE, what it certifies, and whether your jurisdiction requires it?
If required, you may be able to buy an adapter with ECE.
But it may be more expensive than the cheap China produced devices.

Tim Lee
Chattanooga, TN

Man. Date: 03/10/11, VIN # 2026
Delivered 05-17-2011
Blue Ocean, 2011 SL-eTec

shalvak
Posts: 5
Joined: Fri Feb 27, 2015 3:03 am
Delivery Date: 27 Feb 2015
Location: Germany

Re: Leaf Spy Lite

Sat Feb 28, 2015 8:16 am

Thank you for your answer.

I can't serve with a link to the ECE-regulations, because there are many laws and guidelines regarding the ECE / OBD standards. However, the point in this regulation is, that you can't be completely sure, that your OBD-device isn't writing something on the CAN-bus of your vehicle, which could cause an accident, hypothetical spoken. Therefore the insurance of the car won't pay because it was a negligently action, which led to the accident.

I know, that this is very hypothetical and i've never heard about an OBD-device causing an accident. Because of this my question was if the OBD-device has to be plugged during the drive.

There are one or two OBD-devices which have this special regulation. The price is (of course) much higher, but the main problem is the compatibility. As far as i know, the device has to use version 1.5 and not 2.1 in order to work correctly, which isn't the case unfortunately.

Is there any other possibility to store the SOC of the vehicle without an OBD-device plugged in during driving?

Thank you

TimLee
Posts: 2811
Joined: Thu Jan 20, 2011 9:40 am
Delivery Date: 17 May 2011
Leaf Number: 2026
Location: Chattanooga, TN

Re: Leaf Spy Lite

Sat Feb 28, 2015 8:30 am

shalvak wrote:...
Is there any other possibility to store the SOC of the vehicle without an OBD-device plugged in during driving?
...
No.
It is real time data.
LEAF only stores some things.
It does not store a huge amount of data that you can download at a later point.

But none of the devices available write to the CAN as far as I know.
Most send data requests.
A few older devices were passive and just listened.

Tim Lee
Chattanooga, TN

Man. Date: 03/10/11, VIN # 2026
Delivered 05-17-2011
Blue Ocean, 2011 SL-eTec

Turbo3
Gold Member
Posts: 2012
Joined: Mon Jul 19, 2010 8:34 pm
Delivery Date: 12 May 2011
Leaf Number: 002191
Location: San Jose, CA

Re: Leaf Spy Lite

Sat Feb 28, 2015 10:18 am

shalvak wrote:
TimLee wrote:
shalvak wrote:Hi,

I have a question regarding Leaf Spy (Pro) and the option to log data. Does the OBD-Conntector have to be plugged in during the drive or is it fine to plug it after the drive?
Has to be connected during the drive.
Thank you for your answer. Isn't it illicit to use an OBD-Connector during the drive without an ECE-marking? As far as i know you haven't the full insurance in case of an accident. I don't want to charge you, but is has to be 100 % "bulletproof" in my project, in order to realize it. Is there any work-around?
(I see you have answered my questions above as I was writing this.)
Your going to need to provide a reference for the statement "Isn't it illicit to use an OBD-Connector during the drive without an ECE-marking? ". Sounds like you heard it is true and want confirmation. Where did you get that idea from?

A quick search turns up only that it is used for tires, window glass, car seats, seat belts, helmets and things like that. The actual marking appears to be capital E followed by a number indicating the area of the car. For glass on the Leaf I see E6.

The original purpose of the OBDII port was to monitor emission controls to verify compliance. To do this the car must be driven.

I see no ECE marking on any of the official OBDII tools I have access to only an FCC and CE mark most likely for the Bluetooth/WiFi. The same goes for all the various OBDII adapters, only FCC and CE markings.

But of course it is the responsibility of the person using the vehicle to be sure they are in compliance with any local regulations. You should probably make inquires to a local OBDII adapter supplier to see if an ECE approved one is even made.

Please post back here your findings.

Turbo3
Gold Member
Posts: 2012
Joined: Mon Jul 19, 2010 8:34 pm
Delivery Date: 12 May 2011
Leaf Number: 002191
Location: San Jose, CA

Re: Leaf Spy Lite

Sat Feb 28, 2015 10:25 am

shalvak wrote:
There are one or two OBD-devices which have this special regulation. The price is (of course) much higher, but the main problem is the compatibility. As far as i know, the device has to use version 1.5 and not 2.1 in order to work correctly, which isn't the case unfortunately.

Is there any other possibility to store the SOC of the vehicle without an OBD-device plugged in during driving?

Thank you
There is no problem working with a real device that supports version 2.1. As a real v2.1 device would support all the v1.5 commands.

The problem is a lot of the OBDII adapters coming from Asia are listed as v2.1 but are really v1.5 with less commands.

A real v2.1 will work just fine. Sound like that is what you need to be in compliance in you area.

Can you supply a link to such an OBDII adapter?

Turbo3
Gold Member
Posts: 2012
Joined: Mon Jul 19, 2010 8:34 pm
Delivery Date: 12 May 2011
Leaf Number: 002191
Location: San Jose, CA

Re: Leaf Spy Lite

Sat Feb 28, 2015 12:03 pm

shalvak wrote: I can't serve with a link to the ECE-regulations, because there are many laws and guidelines regarding the ECE / OBD standards. However, the point in this regulation is, that you can't be completely sure, that your OBD-device isn't writing something on the CAN-bus of your vehicle, which could cause an accident, hypothetical spoken. Therefore the insurance of the car won't pay because it was a negligently action, which led to the accident.
If you continue this logic the insurance company can also claim the driver was negligent and caused the accident if no proof is required. We "can't be completely sure" can we? Drivers have been known to press the accelerator instead of the brake. So it is possible.

I would be very interested in understanding how an ECE (not CE) approved/compliant OBDII adapter differs from your typical adapter. If you can provide a link I might get one to analyze.

Are we saying an ECE OBDII adapter would be allowed while driving and therefore in some way prevents unsafe OBDII behavior?

This document covers OBD. Have not read it yet.
http://www.unece.org/fileadmin/DAM/tran ... 180a5e.pdf

Seems to only deal with the car side of the OBD. Nothing on adapters a search could find. Lots on emissions.

Here is the page with links to all the specs. OBD is No. 5
http://www.unece.org/trans/main/wp29/wp ... istry.html

shalvak
Posts: 5
Joined: Fri Feb 27, 2015 3:03 am
Delivery Date: 27 Feb 2015
Location: Germany

Re: Leaf Spy Lite

Sun Mar 01, 2015 3:39 am

First of all, i want to thank you for your huge and helpful feedback.
I know, that the risk, that an OBD-connector cause an accident is virtually 0%. So i wouldn't care to use this in my private car. But if you want to use this in a leased car with 25-35 drivers in a case study you have to fulfill the regulations.

The actual question is, if the OBD-system itself is capable of influencing the car or not. If the manufacturer have to guarantee, that the installed OBD-system is safe, it wouldn't be a problem to use an OBD-connector. I also read that a writing process is only allowed in standstill. I have already spend some time in researching, but as you already mentioned, there are documents regarding the ECE-regulations + so called ISO-regulations.

I didn't find anything explicit saying, that an OBD-connector has to fulfill the e-regulations, but on the other hand i also didn't find that a charging cable has to fullfill it, but is has to. The regulation is written in a way, saying that all parts of the car, installed by the manufacturer or the owner has to have the regulation.

As far as i know there are only two products with an e-regulation. The reason is, that it is obviously expensive to get one.
https://drivedeck.de/shop.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; (only in german)
https://buy.garmin.com/en-GB/GB/shop-by ... 38354.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

The compatibility with other software than the one of the manufacturer is questionable.

Turbo3
Gold Member
Posts: 2012
Joined: Mon Jul 19, 2010 8:34 pm
Delivery Date: 12 May 2011
Leaf Number: 002191
Location: San Jose, CA

Re: Leaf Spy Lite

Sun Mar 01, 2015 9:59 am

I was unable to find on those links where either adapter have an "e-regulation". Can you point me to it? The first one is for iOS which always cost more due to Apple certification for Bluetooth approved devices. iOS Bluetooth adapters run over $100 in the US.

I could understand better if we could actually find an "e-regulation" that covers attached devices to OBDII (not the OBDII socket or the car side). At the moment I think all we have is speculation.

shalvak
Posts: 5
Joined: Fri Feb 27, 2015 3:03 am
Delivery Date: 27 Feb 2015
Location: Germany

Re: Leaf Spy Lite

Mon Mar 02, 2015 1:56 am

Hi,

you can find the information here:
https://drivedeck.de/produkte/drivedeckpro/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

"Selbstverständlich besitzt er eine ECE-Zulassung für den Betrieb in Fahrzeugen auf öffentlichen Straßen. "

which means it has an ECE-regulation.

I've found another very interesting peace of information (ISO 15031-3:2004(E) , §4.5):
"Attachment of any external test equipment to the vehicle connector shall not preclude normal physical and electrical operation of the vehicle."

The manufacturers itself don't want to allow external devices, because this would weaken their own after sales program. But the EU-laws of free competition and non-discrimination grant the right to use it. With the ISO from above, the manufacturer has to care about the safety of the OBD-system and all other systems attached to it.

DonH
Posts: 1
Joined: Sun Sep 21, 2014 5:51 pm
Delivery Date: 18 Sep 2014
Leaf Number: 340217

Re: Leaf Spy Lite

Wed Apr 08, 2015 6:41 pm

I've gone through 3 obd2 adapters that all got the "command not found -- use v 1.5" message.
I just ordered a 4th. They're only $10-15, but I'd just like to get something that works.
Do you have a link to a known good connecter?
Thanks
Don

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