LeftieBiker
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Re: 2016 30 kWh Battery data

Sat Oct 05, 2019 3:27 am

I assume that the reference to the VW Beetle was to the original RWD, RE car, which was roughly as complex as a garden tractor. Still, the primitive heating system was nonetheless prone to failure from seized or rusted duct flaps and rotted ducts, and even when working properly was often ineffective at keeping the interior warm - except in Summer, of course.
Scarlet Ember 2018 Leaf SL W/ Pro Pilot
2009 Vectrix VX-1 W/18 Leaf modules, & 3 EZIP E-bicycles.
BAFX OBDII Dongle
PLEASE don't PM me with Leaf questions. Just post in the topic that seems most appropriate.

johnlocke
Posts: 441
Joined: Fri Jan 08, 2016 3:47 pm
Delivery Date: 14 Dec 2015
Leaf Number: 300582

Re: 2016 30 kWh Battery data

Sat Oct 05, 2019 7:48 am

cwerdna wrote:
Sat Oct 05, 2019 1:32 am
cwerdna wrote:
Fri Oct 04, 2019 6:41 pm
This weekend, I can point you to a bunch of Teslas w/pack replacements for whatever reason, in some cases, failure.
viewtopic.php?p=558262#p558262 has a pointer to a couple Model 3 pack failures that I collected in a narrow window of time.

johnlocke: Not sure if you ever saw my post at viewtopic.php?p=553832#p553832.
johnlocke wrote:
Fri Oct 04, 2019 12:13 pm
Since the Tesla warranty is 8 years or 100K miles, You might expect to see 4 million 3's and Y's in the US alone before the first warranties expire. That's a large parts market just waiting to be tapped.
No it is not. The Model 3 warranty is 4 years/50K miles: https://www.tesla.com/support/vehicle-warranty.
New Vehicle Limited Warranty

Your vehicle is protected by a New Vehicle Limited Warranty for 4 years or 50,000 miles
, whichever comes first. The Battery and Drive Unit in your vehicle are covered for a period of:

Model S and Model X – 8 years (with the exception of the original 60 kWh battery manufactured before 2015, which is covered for a period of 8 years or 125,000 miles, whichever comes first).
Model 3 - 8 years or 100,000 miles, whichever comes first, with minimum 70% retention of Battery capacity over the warranty period.
Model 3 with Long-Range Battery - 8 years or 120,000 miles, whichever comes first, with minimum 70% retention of Battery capacity over the warranty period.

These warranties cover the repair or replacement necessary to correct defects in the materials or workmanship of any parts manufactured or supplied by Tesla, which occur under normal use.
cwerdna wrote:
Fri Oct 04, 2019 6:41 pm
You need to think of this like a Volkswagen Beetle. Not much to go wrong
The VW Beetle (I'm talking the FWD water cooled version that was recently discontinued) in the past had a terrible reliability record. It isn't any simpler than other ICEVs of similar size and price. Looking at CR, it look like VW finally got their act together with only 1 year of below average reliability, 3 years of average and 1 year of above average reliability. For the years before model year '12, they have insufficient data.
I stand corrected on the warranty. The Beetle I was referring to was was the old air cooled "bug". My points were that it was easy to repair and how many there were, not how reliable it was. As far as Tesla's battery pack goes, yes there have been failures and even a few fires but overall the battery has held up well. Go look at the battery degradation plots. We both know that electric cars are much less prone to mechanical failures then ICE cars simply because there are fewer mechanical parts in in an electric. If an average ICE car lasts 10-12 years then it is not unreasonable to expect an electric car to last 15-20 years with a battery replacement. Indeed it's far more likely that an electric will be retired due to body rust or interior wear and tear rather than a mechanical failure. Should Tesla's million mile battery come to pass, it's likely that the car will be retired due to wear and tear long before the battery fails.
2016 SV, New battery at 45K mi.
Jamul, CA
San Diego East County

johnlocke
Posts: 441
Joined: Fri Jan 08, 2016 3:47 pm
Delivery Date: 14 Dec 2015
Leaf Number: 300582

Re: 2016 30 kWh Battery data

Sun Oct 06, 2019 9:56 pm

I got curious and started doing a little research and a little math. An automotive grade Li-Ion battery is supposed to have a lifetime of 1500 cycles. End of life is defined as 70% of original capacity. That 1500 cycles seems to be based on charging to 90% and discharging to 20%, Charging to 100% shortens the battery's life particularly if held there for long periods. Discharging below 20% will shorten the life to some extent as well. Shallower discharges (80%-40%) will increase the battery life somewhat at the expense of range. For now, I'll limit the discussion to 90%-20% discharge cycles.

If you use a Leaf as a base, 3.8mi/KWH and 30 KWH battery, Range starts at 114 mi maximum with a usable range of 80 mi after charging. At 30% degradation, the maximum range is 80 miles and the usable range is 56 miles. Assuming linear degradation, you could drive 102,000 miles. That's probably close to a best case scenario. In real life, you probably won't do that well.

In my case, the first battery failed after 874 cycles at 45,000 miles. That's about 52 miles to a charge. The second battery has about 24,000 miles and 450 cycles with 53 miles per charge. The new battery is down 10% at this point and I'll likely see 1300-1400 cycles and get about 70,000 miles out of it. A lot better than the original but not good. I've always needed more than half the reported capacity for my commute and always charged as soon as I got home in case I needed to make a second trip. A larger battery would have solved a lot of problems.

A 30 KWH battery isn't large enough to last the life of the car but if you double the battery size things start to look a lot better. I'd only need to charge ever other day and could do it overnight so the battery would not sit at full charge for more than a couple of hours. If Nissan ever includes a 90% charge option I could use that as well. Assuming a 90%-20% discharge cycle and 1500 cycles, you could drive 200,000 miles on the original battery. At 12,000 mi/yr for the average driver, that's almost 17 years. Considering that the average service life for a car is 12 years, the battery would likely last longer than the car.

It looks like a 50-60 KWH battery is large enough to last the life of almost any car. With proper temperature management and charge control to limit charging to 80-90%, batteries might last far longer. Tesla S models seem to be able to go 150,000 miles with 10% degradation on average. The key here is a larger battery and proper temperature management. Higher miles/cycle, fewer cycles annually, and less stress on the battery during discharge. If the discharge rate is 15KW per hour (60mph) then a 30 KWH battery is discharging at a ½ C rate while the 60 KWH battery discharges at ¼ C rate. The lower the discharge rate, the higher the total discharge value ( you can pull more energy out of a battery if you do it slowly) and the lower the stress on the battery. If the battery is built with multiple cells in parallel and more cells are added to increase the KWH then the current per cell drops and internal heating drops as well.

If we look at a Tesla Model 3 Long Range and use Tesla's current recommendations then we can use a 90%-10% discharge cycle and 1500 cycles as our reference. Maximum range is 325 mi, usable range is 80% or 260 miles. Range at 70% would be 228 miles and the usable range would be 182 miles. Assuming linear degradation over the life of the battery, you could drive 330,000 miles on that battery. At 12,000 mi/yr, that's 27 years of driving. While the Model 3 is too new to have much data on it's pack and that pack uses the newer 21700 battery, if we go by the Model S data then 450,000 miles on the battery is conceivable. That's 37 years of driving. Subtract 25% for the Model 3 Standard+.

I can't imagine driving a car for 20 years but I can imagine it going though 3-4 owners in 20 years. If electric cars prove to be as maintenance free as expected, then the auto market undergoes an upheaval as people hold onto their cars longer and used cars end up as much more reliable transportation.
2016 SV, New battery at 45K mi.
Jamul, CA
San Diego East County

cwerdna
Posts: 9732
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Location: SF Bay Area, CA

Re: 2016 30 kWh Battery data

Sun Oct 06, 2019 11:47 pm

johnlocke wrote:
Fri Oct 04, 2019 12:13 pm
That leaves the battery pack which is likely one of the most reliable parts of the car and Tesla has quoted $5000-$7000 to repair a pack with new battery modules.
Did you ever find a reputable source for this?

Here are two folks who had some sort of road damage to their 3 pack and were quoted $15K:
https://teslamotorsclub.com/tmc/threads ... nt.151862/
https://teslamotorsclub.com/tmc/threads ... ed.156605/

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Please don't PM me with Leaf questions. Just post in the topic that seems most appropriate.

johnlocke
Posts: 441
Joined: Fri Jan 08, 2016 3:47 pm
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Leaf Number: 300582

Re: 2016 30 kWh Battery data

Mon Oct 07, 2019 6:55 am

cwerdna wrote:
Sun Oct 06, 2019 11:47 pm
johnlocke wrote:
Fri Oct 04, 2019 12:13 pm
That leaves the battery pack which is likely one of the most reliable parts of the car and Tesla has quoted $5000-$7000 to repair a pack with new battery modules.
Did you ever find a reputable source for this?

Here are two folks who had some sort of road damage to their 3 pack and were quoted $15K:
https://teslamotorsclub.com/tmc/threads ... nt.151862/
https://teslamotorsclub.com/tmc/threads ... ed.156605/
Other than a twitter feed from Musk, no. Then again, road damage would be covered under their comprehensive insurance and the cost quoted by Musk was for replacement of the internal battery modules only not the entire pack. In other words, a pack rebuild where the old modules could be reused for some lesser use.
2016 SV, New battery at 45K mi.
Jamul, CA
San Diego East County

GaleHawkins
Posts: 33
Joined: Sat Oct 26, 2019 5:24 pm
Delivery Date: 15 Oct 2019
Leaf Number: 311365
Location: Murray KY

Re: 2016 30 kWh Battery data

Sat Oct 26, 2019 7:16 pm

johnlocke wrote:
Mon Jun 27, 2016 11:48 pm
jjgilham wrote:I drive about 1250 miles a month. My commute is 40 miles round trip and I get a good dose of errands and I generally have an even mix of highway and city driving. Most of my highway trips are short (3-10 miles). I do L2 charging at home almost exclusively. I live in Seattle so heat is not typically much of an issue.

Today my stats were:
Ahr 74.51
SOH 93%
Hx 89.43%
odo 1020 miles

The Hx is really bothersome to me although it doesn't seem anyone really knows what it means. This is about what my 2013 was I turned it in after 43k miles and close to 3 years.
Try doing some dc fast charges. I'd try to get in 2 or 3 level 3 charges followed by topping off at home. Try to run the battery down to below 30% before charging. It may help to reform the cells. Since you're on a lease the battery dying is a moot point. If it doesn't improve after a couple of fast charges, I'd complain to the dealer and Nissan. The car is marketed as having a 30 KWH battery and the normal reading is 79-80 AH. I'd at least get it on the record that the readings are low. You might also see what the range is to Low Battery Warning. Low Battery Warning occurs at around 13% of charge so multiply your average mi/KWH by 26 KWH (87%) and see if it comes close to what you got. Hope that helps.
johnlocke thanks for this suggestion. 12 days ago I bought a 2016 SL with 21.5K miles from a Nissan dealership that bought it from Nissan as a recent off lease car. It came with 9/12 SOH bars and a fully charged range of 70 miles. While I expect it is the BMS issue I am first trying to see if the range can be improved before requesting the software update.

The L1 charger was just loose in the trunk and shows some wear while the case is still strapped to the side of the trunk and looks new like. 5 days ago I got my new Mustart 40 amp charging cable and after the first L2 charging to 100% the mileage was 80. Twice since I have driven it down to the VLBW and the next day the range showed more like 90 miles. Yesterday I only drove it 29 miles and now at 100% SOC the range reads 81. I have read from Nissan that the software update does not actually increase range. Is my missing range is hiding even after the last charge bar is gone. There has been no turtle mode or even decrease in WOT take off speed after the very low warning.

I plan to drive to Paducah KY Walmart to use their DC charger but wanted to work the battery pack a few times since range has improved a bit. When I got the car in St. Louis I just rented a U haul car trailer since I had driven my F-150 with the tow package. I only had the L1 OEM charger at first. I could drop 10 miles of range in the first two miles of driving but it does not do it as much now and I have to drive a lot longer the get to the first warning of low battery.

The car is awesome and the EV has great power and handling and is very nice inside and out. I love the dark blue pearl color too. I almost bought an 2015 SL of Craigslist but the price was not that much more to get this one from a Nissan dealership plus from my reading over the past few months I wanted the 30 kWh battery after I got past the internet fear factor. :)

GaleHawkins
Posts: 33
Joined: Sat Oct 26, 2019 5:24 pm
Delivery Date: 15 Oct 2019
Leaf Number: 311365
Location: Murray KY

Re:

Sat Oct 26, 2019 7:32 pm

DaveinOlyWA wrote:
Sun Jul 03, 2016 7:19 am
johnlocke wrote:
DaveinOlyWA wrote:
Could you explain how you go about changing the Hx value? It might be useful for us to know how to change it and how to improve the value. It might at least explain why it changes and what the effect is on the battery.
it would be easier if you read my blog. have several entries talking about this. it also provides a lot minute details.

Part of the reason is top end balancing. the balancing is based on the voltage of the highest cell. going beyond this will cause damage to the cell if allowed to charge beyond the high end cut off, right?

Problem is that when this cell hits it, the other cells are at a varying distance below the top. This is where you see differences in GIDs and ahr.

Now keep in mind; cell balancing goes on all the time but the current is very small. This is part of the reason why the charge lights remain on after the charge has essentially ended. There will be times when the charge will reinitiate because cell balancing dropped the voltage of the highest cell sufficiently to restart it.

So top end balancing becomes critical if you need the maximum range. BUT, if you don't need the range, using the middle range of your SOC is the recommended method for increasing your long term viability. I The best way to attain good balance is deep cycle charging but must be done every day for at least 3-5 days in a row.

http://daveinolywa.blogspot.com/2016/05 ... 36000.html

a few things to take note of; the voltage delta at 57% SOC. Now seeing this at full charge is not unusual but at half? that is good balance.

Before the experiment I was at 59 ahr, 92 Hx, Kwh available 20.0

This pix was taken after the update that shows the date so that is obvious but you can also judge by mileage as well.

60 ahr.jpg

here is pix from LAST year. now my stats suck right? same car, same pack, same driver, same location so what changed?

I was simply charging with a profile that likely resembles yours. charging maybe 4-5 days a week, never hitting full charge or rarely hitting full charge. SOC ranging from 20 to maybe 85% but mostly in the 30 to 70% range.

This screenshot was taken on the first full charge after only 8 days.


FINALLY; I mention this last because if I mentioned this first, you would (like most here) stop reading. I believe the LEAF BMS was reprogrammed to hold more back to enhance longevity but will also allow a deeper charge if it feels you need it. So by driving a lot of miles in a short period of time, I think I am fooling the LEAF into thinking I am on a roadtrip so because of that, the LEAF BMS is allowing more range to be available.

Sound far fetched? Well, I guess that is the advantage of having my own blog; I get to make all the rules!
Dave thank you for the deep cycling info and your blog link.

johnlocke
Posts: 441
Joined: Fri Jan 08, 2016 3:47 pm
Delivery Date: 14 Dec 2015
Leaf Number: 300582

Re: 2016 30 kWh Battery data

Fri Nov 01, 2019 9:50 pm

Nov update. 322 GID's 70.37AH, SOH=88.54%, Hx=69.88%, 68500 total mi. 25335 mi on new battery. 18 DCFC and 482 l2 charges on the new battery. The battery is continuing to slowly degrade. Now that cooler weather is here again I expect the battery will show a slower loss until April or May. After 16 months I'm down 11.3% compared to new. It looks like I'll be down by 23-25% when the warranty expires. That's about 18 months away at the rate i'm driving. That's also about as much battery loss as I care to deal with. I'd like to wait for the Model Y or the ID4 but I don't know when they will actually be available. There a outside chance that the Tesla Pickup shows up and I replace both the Leaf and my old Tundra with it. I have to have a pickup but I hate driving the Tundra because of the fuel economy. If the Tesla Pickup has a Crew cab, I might be able to kill two birds with one stone.
2016 SV, New battery at 45K mi.
Jamul, CA
San Diego East County

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