edatoakrun
Posts: 5222
Joined: Thu Nov 11, 2010 9:33 am
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Leaf Number: 2184
Location: Shasta County, North California

Re: I want my 281!

Mon Apr 01, 2013 3:16 pm

="camasleaf"]Here is the "data" from CW for the test on March 29th...
Camasleaf", can you please post some additional data?

I realize this may be off-topic on this thread, but you've got a lot of interesting data shown in your range test report that I'd like to comment on at an appropriate thread, and it would be much easier to discuss the subject, with this additional info.

Can you post the Nav screen m/kWh for the entire test run, or any of the trips you recorded, for both LEAFs?

Since (as I posted earlier) it sounds like you won't have the total CW miles driven or kWh use (the daily report, for the test miles only) can you please post the CW "rate simulation" data for the entire test day for both LEAFs, and the CW miles driven and kWh use for the entire day, for both LEAFs?
no condition is permanent

camasleaf
Posts: 662
Joined: Sun Sep 26, 2010 5:20 am
Delivery Date: 17 Jun 2011
Location: Camas, WA

Re: I want my 281!

Mon Apr 01, 2013 5:08 pm

edatoakrun wrote:Camasleaf", can you please post some additional data?
First leg of the test:
old Leaf
Image
Image

new Leaf
Image
Image
2011 SLe 06/17/11 Over 92000 miles 59%SOH
2018 Honda Clarity PHEV
2014 Model S P85 87000 miles 250 miles range
5.7kW DC Solar System

camasleaf
Posts: 662
Joined: Sun Sep 26, 2010 5:20 am
Delivery Date: 17 Jun 2011
Location: Camas, WA

Re: I want my 281!

Mon Apr 01, 2013 5:46 pm

I do not have picture of the end of the test: The GIDs I wrote down. The averages we took pictures and deleted them somehow, so those numbers are my wife and my "memory" data. I am pretty sure about my memory, but not about my wife's ;) . Here are the current pictures, nothing has been reset since Friday morning. I will post the CW tomorrow or when available. Both cars at 80% old one for about 2 hours, new one just finished charging.

Old Leaf:
Image
Image

New Leaf:
Image
Image


For me the test was to see how much I can go until turtle. We only did the VLBW and the old Leaf gave the VLBW a couple hundred yards before the new Leaf. Not bad at all. I plan to install the hitch on one of the cars (new one, if I do not void the warranty) so any future test will be affected by the presence of the hitch.
2011 SLe 06/17/11 Over 92000 miles 59%SOH
2018 Honda Clarity PHEV
2014 Model S P85 87000 miles 250 miles range
5.7kW DC Solar System

User avatar
garygid
Gold Member
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Delivery Date: 29 Mar 2011
Leaf Number: 000855
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Re: I want my 281!

Mon Apr 01, 2013 6:23 pm

If BC% is battery capacity, no, I do not know where
the Battery Capacity data is located in the messages.

The GID-Meter reads SOC% and displays that
(typically around 95% after a full charge).

It also reads the "GIDs" value (up to around 281
on a new battery at nominal temperatures) as
a measure of the "fuel-on-board", and displays
that GID number. For convenience it also displays
the GIDs as a percentage of 281, to indicate the
amount of fuel as a percentage of what you had
when the car was new.

The GID-Meter also displays the Pack current, voltage,
and power output (and input).

I hope to continue adding capabilities, showing
the 4 Pack Temperatures, and the cell-pair Max,
Min, and Average voltages.

If we can find them, I would like to display the
four tire pressures.

The GID-Meter will also log the messages from
the CAR, or EV bus.
See SOC/GID-Meter and CAN-Do Info
2010 Prius
2011 LEAF, 2014 Tesla S85
2018 & 2019 Tesla Model 3
PU: SDG&E
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camasleaf
Posts: 662
Joined: Sun Sep 26, 2010 5:20 am
Delivery Date: 17 Jun 2011
Location: Camas, WA

Re: I want my 281!

Wed Apr 03, 2013 7:15 pm

edatoakrun wrote:Camasleaf", can you please post some additional data?
Here is the CW data from the day of the test until now.

Image

I know that the TB will fix the CW reporting issue. But I am of the principle "If it is not broken do not fix it", my wife is happy driving the car with the "grabby brakes", higher miles/kWh numbers and the other little annoyances the car came with.

One thing she would like is to get total manual control over the climate control, but there is no fix for that.
2011 SLe 06/17/11 Over 92000 miles 59%SOH
2018 Honda Clarity PHEV
2014 Model S P85 87000 miles 250 miles range
5.7kW DC Solar System

edatoakrun
Posts: 5222
Joined: Thu Nov 11, 2010 9:33 am
Delivery Date: 15 May 2011
Leaf Number: 2184
Location: Shasta County, North California

Re: I want my 281!

Thu Apr 04, 2013 5:41 pm

Camasleaf,

The reason I am trying to get an account of your CW report corresponding to THE SAME MILES DRIVEN as your dash and nav screen reports, is to see if the statement below is true for your 2012 LEAF.
...All 2011-2 LEAFs, AFAIK, have reported the same Carwings odometer and Dash m/kWh error of consistently under-reporting by ~2.5%.

So if your CW miles driven is ~2.5% lower than your dash odometer miles, and your dash m/kWh is showing ~2.5% less than your nav screen m/kWh (0.1 m/kWh lower below ~6 m/kWh, and 0.2 m/kWh lower when you are getting over ~6 m/kWh) this is "normal" for 2011-2012 LEAFs.

Hopefully, Nissan has fixed this error in the 2013s. Any readers have a CW equipped 2013? Please check and report back...

The Dash, nav screen and CW m/kWh all are mathematically "correct" as a function of the total kWh use reported by CW for every trip, day, or months driving.

It's just that the dash uses the same ~2.5% understated miles to make its calculation of m/kWh as CW does, while the nav screen is always accurate as a function of reported kWh use, as it uses the dash odometer miles, for the m/kWh calculation...
http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.p ... 7&start=40" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

My first question whether is the 0.4 m/kWh variation between your cars dash and nav screens, as shown in the photos below, is normal for both your LEAFs.

My LEAF, both before and after the update, never has displayed a variation between those two m/kwh reports other than the nav screen always reading 0.0 to 0.2 higher m/kWh, on all longer trips in the normal (~3 to ~7 m/kwh) usage range, always conforming with the statement I quoted above.

AFAIK, all other LEAFs have reported the same. So, if both your LEAFs showed the 0.4 m/kWh variations between the dash and nav screen as shown below, the photos were taken ~simultaneously, and that is normal for both your LEAFs, I can't understand what is going on.

camasleaf wrote:
edatoakrun wrote:Camasleaf", can you please post some additional data?
First leg of the test:
old Leaf
Image
Image

new Leaf
Image
Image
no condition is permanent

camasleaf
Posts: 662
Joined: Sun Sep 26, 2010 5:20 am
Delivery Date: 17 Jun 2011
Location: Camas, WA

Re: I want my 281!

Thu Apr 04, 2013 8:46 pm

edatoakrun wrote: My first question whether is the 0.4 m/kWh variation between your cars dash and nav screens, as shown in the photos below, is normal for both your LEAFs.

My LEAF, both before and after the update, never has displayed a variation between those two m/kwh reports other than the nav screen always reading 0.0 to 0.2 higher m/kWh, on all longer trips in the normal (~3 to ~7 m/kwh) usage range, always conforming with the statement I quoted above.

AFAIK, all other LEAFs have reported the same. So, if both your LEAFs showed the 0.4 m/kWh variations between the dash and nav screen as shown below, the photos were taken ~simultaneously, and that is normal for both your LEAFs, I can't understand what is going on.
I am sorry I was not clear on that: the dash screen miles/kWh was never reset since we had the cars. Only the navigation screen miles/kwh was reset on Friday morning before the test (the dash trip miles was reset). It just happened that the difference between the life average and trip average is the same for both cars.
2011 SLe 06/17/11 Over 92000 miles 59%SOH
2018 Honda Clarity PHEV
2014 Model S P85 87000 miles 250 miles range
5.7kW DC Solar System

edatoakrun
Posts: 5222
Joined: Thu Nov 11, 2010 9:33 am
Delivery Date: 15 May 2011
Leaf Number: 2184
Location: Shasta County, North California

Re: I want my 281!

Fri Apr 05, 2013 8:01 am

camasleaf wrote:
edatoakrun wrote: My first question whether is the 0.4 m/kWh variation between your cars dash and nav screens, as shown in the photos below, is normal for both your LEAFs.

My LEAF, both before and after the update, never has displayed a variation between those two m/kwh reports other than the nav screen always reading 0.0 to 0.2 higher m/kWh, on all longer trips in the normal (~3 to ~7 m/kwh) usage range, always conforming with the statement I quoted above.

AFAIK, all other LEAFs have reported the same. So, if both your LEAFs showed the 0.4 m/kWh variations between the dash and nav screen as shown below, the photos were taken ~simultaneously, and that is normal for both your LEAFs, I can't understand what is going on.
I am sorry I was not clear on that: the dash screen miles/kWh was never reset since we had the cars. Only the navigation screen miles/kwh was reset on Friday morning before the test (the dash trip miles was reset). It just happened that the difference between the life average and trip average is the same for both cars.
OK.

First, had you reset the dash m/kWh, I believe the 2012 would have displayed 4.3 m/kWh, as indicated by the 4.4 m/kWh nav screen, and the 4.3 m/kWh of both of the two individual trips reported by CarWings for that LEAF, exactly as my LEAF (and all other CarWings capable LEAFs?) would.

Both your LEAFs' nav screen m/kWh reports indicate that your 2011 got ~ 6% to 7% higher (4.4/4.7) m/kWh than your 2012 on this range test.

IMO, this result is very unlikely in a test with all known efficiency variables controlled. So, IMO, it is strongly indicative of error in one or both of the kWh reports used in that equation.

I suspect that your 2011 is responsible for most of this error, reporting nominal "kWh" that actually contain greater than 1,000 Wh content, on both its dash and nav screen m/kWh reports.

And your 2011 will report the same error, but you will be able to discern its magnitude with much greater accuracy, after you have the NTB-11-041 update.

Your 2012 CarWings reports ~18.9 kWh between "100%" and ~VLBW (this would be more accurate if you had the day report or a single trip report, rather than adding up the two trips) which is very close to the ~18.7 kWh my LEAF reported at ~the same age and miles driven. Look what has happened to my CW use reports over the subsequent 18 months:
Below is how Carwings has reported the total energy use from "100%" to ~VLBW on my warm climate LEAF two years from the factory and with ~16,000 miles on the odometer.

While the reported kWh use has dropped quite a bit, My LEAF has displayed no significant loss of range from my first test, to most recent, on range tests of 95-113 miles, when corrected for all test variables, including speed, temperature both when charging and when driving, and my own driving efficiency (as reflected in the regen kWh reported by CarWings).

Of course my battery has lost capacity in the last 18 months, it just not yet a large enough loss to show up clearly in a range test, and is, IMO, nearly certainly far less than the kWh use results below, showing capacity loss approaching 15% just over the last 18 months (when adjusted for battery temperature) would indicate:

All charges prior to testing were to “80%", battery allowed to return to ambient temperature, and then charged @ 16 A 240 V to “100%”, two to three hours before range/capacity test begins, and then left plugged into the EVSE until departure.

IMO The distance driven at the point where the battery temp bars increased, when that has occurred, is useful data as to the relative battery temp and temperature the (temperature variable) battery capacity when the "100%" charge was completed.

9/7/11 18.7 kWh from "100%" to VLBW, 6 dash battery temp bars constant (as recalled later)

5/10 12 17.2 kWh, 5 to 6 temp bars ~mile 73

5/31/12 17.5 kWh, 5 to 6 temp bars ~mile 5

6/17/12 17.5 kWh, 6 temp bars constant

8/18/12 17.0 kWh, 6 temp bars constant

8/30/12 16.8 kWh, 6 temp bars constant

9/08/12 16.7 kWh, 5 to 6 temp bars ~ 4.6 miles

10/1/12 16.6 kWh, 6 temp bars constant

11/3/12 16.2 kwh, 4 to 5 temp bars ~mile 14

1/31 15.7 kWh, 4 to 5 temp bars ~mile 24

2/16/13 15.8 kWh, 4 to 5 temp bars ~mile 18

3/1/13 15.6 kWh, 4 to 5 temp bars ~mile 18

3/13/13 16.0 kWh, 5 bars temp constant


I think it is nearly certain, that the LEAF "gauge error" that has shown up in premature battery capacity bar loss and Wh/gid error in other LEAFs is also displaying itself in the dash and nav screen m/kWh, and also in the (more accurate) CarWings kWh use reports, from my LEAF, as I have posted above.

IMO, any LEAFer who can learn to use CarWings, may see the same sort of results I have, and also be able to largely differentiate any range loss due to real battery capacity loss, from their LEAF's questionable kWh use reports, as I believe I have been able to do.
http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.p ... 7&start=40" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

The problem of course, is that your 2011 was not updated, and so its CW kWh reports do not match its dash, nor the nav screen after applying the ~2.5% correction for the CW and dash odometer errors.

However, if you take what probably would have been your nav screen m/kWh had you reset it) 4.6 and divide by the 5.6 indicated by CW, you get ~0.82, but with a large uncertainty, due to using the relatively inaccurate dash as your data source. Check your other CW reports for the 2011 against the dash, and I think they also probably will show that none of your other pre-update CW report numbers are "nonsense", they also seem to show the same constant error, though somewhat camouflaged by the inaccuracy from cycling it through the dash m/kWh.

Look at my comment from last fall:
Your earlier "nonsense" (pre-update Carwings) reports might not be so much so as you think.

IIRC, it always seemed to me that mine seemed like they might have read "off" by a constant coefficient, something close to 80%.

Unfortunately, I was "surprised" by the accuracy that came from the update, and never had a previous trip or trips logged accurately enough to compare to the (nearly) accurate (~2.5% miles driven error) post-update reports.

If you have trips or days of drives with all the m/kWh from dash/nav screen noted prior to the update, and repeat them now, you might figure out a way to recover data from the "nonsense".

Or maybe not...
http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.p ... 5&start=20" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

So, if you have the CW update done promptly on your 2011, and use the more accurate total kWh use report from CW for the same range of battery capacity, "100%" to ~ the same SOC at or beyond VLBW, you may be able to get a better estimate of what the kWh report error was, in your recent test.

The true moral of this story, IMO, is that it is not possible to get the most accurate estimate of your LEAF's kWh use report from any range test, and determine whether your dash, nav screen and CW may be reporting a common and significant error in these reports (as I think is likely in your 2011 LEAF, and almost certainly in my LEAF) unless you have CarWings capability.

And please reset the dash gauge at the start of the test, and either do the test in a single "trip", or alternately make no other trips on the same day (as I do) so you can get a single report of kWh use (and miles driven) from CarWings, rather than having to add up several "trips" with the kWh use reported with only 0.1 kWh resolution.
no condition is permanent

sirfergy
Posts: 104
Joined: Wed Mar 30, 2011 3:57 pm
Delivery Date: 28 Jun 2011
Leaf Number: 4777

Re: I want my 281!

Thu Apr 11, 2013 7:13 am

I recently got a Bluetooth OBD II reader, and noticed that after a 100% charge SoC% was 93%. Is that typical? After I lost my 2nd bar it showed 80%. I've calculated capacity loss to be 3% based on the readings from the capacity value reported by the reader.

User avatar
garygid
Gold Member
Posts: 12469
Joined: Wed Apr 21, 2010 8:10 am
Delivery Date: 29 Mar 2011
Leaf Number: 000855
Location: Laguna Hills, Orange Co, CA

Re: I want my 281!

Thu Apr 11, 2013 7:42 am

Yes, after a full charge (100%) the "real SOC" typically reads 94-ish,
independent of the capacity loss of your battery.

With a capacity loss of 50%, the SOC will still read around 95%, but
the GIDs (as a percentage of 281) will typically read around 50%,
much better indicating the amount of UFOB (Usable Fuel-On-Board).

Based primarily on temperature, the car might charge slightly less
(or rarely, more) when charging to "full", so the "full" SOC will vary.

Also, if the cells are not well balanced, and one cell gets "full" first
(there is always a "first-full"), then charging would also terminate early.
See SOC/GID-Meter and CAN-Do Info
2010 Prius
2011 LEAF, 2014 Tesla S85
2018 & 2019 Tesla Model 3
PU: SDG&E
Solar PV: 33 x 225W -> 7 kW max AC
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