vegastar
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Re: 281 is not the maximum SOC value

Thu Nov 24, 2011 10:26 am

My experience shows that CV starts at around 50-55% SOC in a QC session. That's why jkirkebo only had 35kW at 60%.
2011 Nissan LEAF since 2011-07-07, 151000 km on 2018-03-03, 7 bars, 37.9Ah.

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garygid
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Re: 281 is not the maximum SOC value

Thu Nov 24, 2011 10:42 am

1. Sometimes, charging to "100%" instead of "80%" (or lower) is important in reaching one's next destination.

2. The simplistic, non-intelligent charging profile CAN be Constant Current, Constant Voltage. However, most charge controllers these days are smarter than that, and they change (adapt) the current flow during charging to suit cell voltage, temperature, history, etc.
See SOC/GID-Meter and CAN-Do Info
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abasile
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Re: 281 is not the maximum SOC value

Thu Nov 24, 2011 10:48 am

jkirkebo wrote:I noted down the different power levels from the quick charger.

22-45% - 46kW.
60% - 35kW
68% - 30kW
75% - 25kW
80% - 20kW
86% - 15kW
93% - 10kW
96% - 8kW
98% - 6kW
100% - 4.8kW
102.5% - 2kW
This is very interesting data. I hadn't expected 46 kW to be sustained for such a large portion of the SOC range.

I will note that a charge rate of 20 kW at roughly 80% SOC is significantly higher than what I normally observe from sustained regen going down "our" 5000' mountain descent at that SOC. At 80% SOC, I normally can't even sustain 10 kW of regen, even when the pack is relatively warm. (Regen is more limited when the pack is cold.)

One might ask why regen is apparently more limited than QC in terms of charge rate. Perhaps Nissan engineers wanted to avoid greater wear on the battery pack, since most of us do more regen than QC.
2011 LEAF at 71K miles, pre-owned 2012 Tesla S 85 at 98K miles
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jkirkebo
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Re: 281 is not the maximum SOC value

Thu Nov 24, 2011 11:29 am

garygid wrote:Good work, nice data, doing QC on a 2012 model, right?
If you have the Logging Port on your SOC-Meter, a CAN-Do log of the EV-CAN bus during a full QC session would be great to publish for others to examine and investigate.
Sorry, no port and no laptop either. I just have a dekstop and an iPad, neither is useful for in-car logging ;)

But I'm sure the results can be replicated with someone with access to a QC and SOC-meter ?

Danal
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Re: 281 is not the maximum SOC value

Thu Nov 24, 2011 11:50 am

I would note from the data provided that the rate of charge dropped through "1C" which would be 24kW for the Leaf's approximate 24kWh pack, right about 75 to 80%. So my statement about no advantage of a 2C or 3C capable charger (as vs. a 1C charger) for the last (very very roughly) 20% holds true.

While I mentioned earlier that the Leaf's 3.3kW charger left room for a more capable charger to do that last 20% faster, I didn't put any numbers behind it. The built in charger is about 0.14C, so there is still significant advantage to the quick charger for that last 20%, in the specific case of a Leaf. Good to know... I hadn't really done that mental math and didn't realize how much of a gain a QC would have during the last 20%, as vs. the 3.3kW built in. The gap is quite large, and therefore the QC is much faster, as you folks pointed out.

Since I now have access to a QC, it is very good to see the data, do the math, and change my assumptions.



With regard to charge controllers being smarter than simple CC/CV: Agreed!! Most modern systems are smarter. But... the CC/CV rates, with CC mostly being limited by the charger's total wattage capability, and the CV being an inherent limitation of the Li chemistry, those limits still form an "upper" or "outer" range within which the smarter systems must operate. As such, they are still useful for directional calculations. As always, measurement trumps prediction, and it is REALLY NICE to have the data.
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LEAFfan
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Re: 281 is not the maximum SOC value

Thu Nov 24, 2011 12:34 pm

jkirkebo wrote:The charger stopped by itself. This is normal QC behaviour when you start from below 50% SOC. If you start from above 50% the charge process goes to 100%. Or in this case, 102.5% ;)
What kind of QC did you use because the Blink QC seems to operate much differently than the one you used. The Blink one charges to whatever you set it to and it makes no difference at what SOC % you start from. However, I found that to get an 80% charge (78-79% actual), you have to set it to '90%', and it will charge a little faster (about 23 mins.) when you are down to two bars or less. Also, to get a 100% charge takes an additional 32 minutes (after the 90%) and it only takes it to 97% SOC. I can't get the raw numbers yet. Since QCing, I now get 81.8% for an 80% charge on L2 where as before QCing, I usually always got 76.8%. I haven't charged to 100% yet on L2 since the QCs, but the most I've gotten on L2 is 94%. I'm going to 100% charge later today/tonight for tomorrow. I'll probably get close to 100% now (Edit: I predicted correctly...99%!).
HAPPY THANKSGIVING Everyone! :D
Last edited by LEAFfan on Fri Nov 25, 2011 1:01 am, edited 1 time in total.
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jkirkebo
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Re: 281 is not the maximum SOC value

Thu Nov 24, 2011 2:29 pm

LEAFfan wrote:
jkirkebo wrote:The charger stopped by itself. This is normal QC behaviour when you start from below 50% SOC. If you start from above 50% the charge process goes to 100%. Or in this case, 102.5% ;)
What kind of QC did you use because the Blink QC seems to operate much differently than the one you used.
It's made by SGTE, a french company:

http://www.sgte-power.com/produits2/page1.html

It's not possible to set the charger to anything, there is only one button on the screen labeled "start", and when it's running the button is labeled "stop" instead. Nothing else to configure. The charger will run for 60 minutes max.

vegastar
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Re: 281 is not the maximum SOC value

Thu Nov 24, 2011 4:45 pm

In one charge I made from 10% SOC, the power started below 50KW at around 45kW because it is charging at the maximum 125A chademo can provide. As the voltage increases the power increases up to almost 50kW (394x125) and then the voltage stayed constant and the current started
to drop. The car started with 5 temperature bars and ended with the same 5, so there was no need to limit current from the temperature.

The next time I make a QC I will see if my car can go above 281 gids.
2011 Nissan LEAF since 2011-07-07, 151000 km on 2018-03-03, 7 bars, 37.9Ah.

jkirkebo
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Location: Fredrikstad, Norway

Re: 281 is not the maximum SOC value

Thu Nov 24, 2011 11:27 pm

vegastar wrote:In one charge I made from 10% SOC, the power started below 50KW at around 45kW because it is charging at the maximum 125A chademo can provide. As the voltage increases the power increases up to almost 50kW (394x125) and then the voltage stayed constant and the current started
to drop. The car started with 5 temperature bars and ended with the same 5, so there was no need to limit current from the temperature.
Interesting. I think the carger I used was limited to 120A as it never exceeded that. I started with only 4 temperature bars, though I think it finished with 5 (not sure). I usually only see 4 bars these days.

DarkStar
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Re: 281 is not the maximum SOC value

Fri Nov 25, 2011 9:49 am

LEAFfan wrote:
jkirkebo wrote:The charger stopped by itself. This is normal QC behaviour when you start from below 50% SOC. If you start from above 50% the charge process goes to 100%. Or in this case, 102.5% ;)
What kind of QC did you use because the Blink QC seems to operate much differently than the one you used. The Blink one charges to whatever you set it to and it makes no difference at what SOC % you start from. However, I found that to get an 80% charge (78-79% actual), you have to set it to '90%', and it will charge a little faster (about 23 mins.) when you are down to two bars or less. Also, to get a 100% charge takes an additional 32 minutes (after the 90%) and it only takes it to 97% SOC. I can't get the raw numbers yet. Since QCing, I now get 81.8% for an 80% charge on L2 where as before QCing, I usually always got 76.8%. I haven't charged to 100% yet on L2 since the QCs, but the most I've gotten on L2 is 94%. I'm going to 100% charge later today/tonight for tomorrow. I'll probably get close to 100% now (Edit: I predicted correctly...99%!).
HAPPY THANKSGIVING Everyone! :D
FYI, the Leaf still does take priority on the Blink QC units. If you're below 50% SOC, the Leaf will stop charging at 80% SOC, regardless of what the DC Quick Charger is set at. If you're over 50% the Leaf won't attempt to stop charging until it reaches 100%.
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