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LTLFTcomposite
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Re: Tesla Powerwall

Fri May 01, 2015 10:14 am

BrockWI wrote: I do wonder if someone like Schneider (Xantrex) will come up with a grid tie inverter with these batteries in mind, a plug and play setup. Then you could have a grid tie inverter system and then if you choose to add these you now have grid tie with backup and load shifting or peak shaving potential.
Right, but it's all more components, more labor to install, more to explain to people. What's the point of having the battery in a pretty box painted to match your car if you have a maze of conduit running to other boxes and such? It could have been one box, with one conduit running to the panels and another to a transfer switch box sort of like a generac home backup generator.

Instead of simplifying, cost reducing, and demystifying solar for the public they just made it worse.
LTL
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AndyH
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Re: Tesla Powerwall

Fri May 01, 2015 10:15 am

Maybe there's room for the 10 year warranty to evolve as well as the price.
Other energy storage companies have conducted similar tests, but only Younicos' system has thus far achieved a 20-year warranty from a major lithium-cell producer, Samsung of South Korea, according to professor Michael Sterner, who co-directs the Research Centre for Energy Networks and Energy Storage at the Technical University of Regensburg.
http://www.eenews.net/stories/1060017529
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AndyH
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Re: Tesla Powerwall

Fri May 01, 2015 10:20 am

LTLFTcomposite wrote:
BrockWI wrote: I do wonder if someone like Schneider (Xantrex) will come up with a grid tie inverter with these batteries in mind, a plug and play setup. Then you could have a grid tie inverter system and then if you choose to add these you now have grid tie with backup and load shifting or peak shaving potential.
Right, but it's all more components, more labor to install, more to explain to people. What's the point of having the battery in a pretty box painted to match your car if you have a maze of conduit running to other boxes and such? It could have been one box, with one conduit running to the panels and another to a transfer switch box sort of like a generac home backup generator.

Instead of simplifying, cost reducing, and demystifying solar for the public they just made it worse.
A backup generator performs the same function as the DC-AC inverter does today. The battery replaces the generator's fuel tank/natural gas feed. Nothing complex about this stuff at all.
"The stupid become extinct."-Bill Mollison
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AndyH
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Re: Tesla Powerwall

Fri May 01, 2015 10:23 am

Some of Tesla's competition is already experienced in these markets...
A big test for Younicos is its entrance into the U.S. electricity market, which has the potential for a third of all large-scale energy storage applications.

By acquiring the assets of Xtreme Power in a bankruptcy auction in early 2014, Younicos got off to a fast start, gaining access to 60 MW of up-and-running grid-scale battery storage projects at Duke Energy Corp.'s 36-MW Notrees wind farm in Texas. In total, the company now manages 100 MW of installed capacity spread across 22 projects, according to Philip Hiersemenzel, a Younicos press spokesman.
http://www.eenews.net/stories/1060017529
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EVDRIVER
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Re: Tesla Powerwall

Fri May 01, 2015 10:25 am

TimLee wrote:$350 per kWh is the real news.
Beats the few competitors out there by quite a bit.

Does pretty clearly show that Nissan's $250 per kWh replacement heat resistant pack with trade-in is at least somewhat below production cost.

:?:

I'm not sure it shows anything more than Tesla charges more. It can also show Nissan has lower costs and better economies of scale. Comparing the cost of two different battery types, configs and from two different makers does not draw any concrete conclusions. Let's see what Apple decides to use in their 200 mile autonomous car...

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Nubo
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Re: Tesla Powerwall

Fri May 01, 2015 10:26 am

AndyH wrote:It wouldn't make good business sense to not use the same battery design. Why do you think that liquid thermal management is a bad idea for BEVs and 'home' use? Musk says the box can be attached to an outside wall...Having lived in Tucson, I know those outside walls can be really toasty...and my San Antonio garage stays above 100°F for more than 3 months each summer...before adding any additional heat...
It seemed to me that he was saying the unit is intended to be mounted on an outside wall. Led me to think there is some heat-sink, heat-exchange or ducting involved. Or maybe it's just a structural thing as outside walls are naturally load-bearing walls...
I noticed you're still working with polymers.

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EVDRIVER
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Re: Tesla Powerwall

Fri May 01, 2015 10:31 am

Nubo wrote:
AndyH wrote:It wouldn't make good business sense to not use the same battery design. Why do you think that liquid thermal management is a bad idea for BEVs and 'home' use? Musk says the box can be attached to an outside wall...Having lived in Tucson, I know those outside walls can be really toasty...and my San Antonio garage stays above 100°F for more than 3 months each summer...before adding any additional heat...
It seemed to me that he was saying the unit is intended to be mounted on an outside wall. Led me to think there is some heat-sink, heat-exchange or ducting involved. Or maybe it's just a structural thing as outside walls are naturally load-bearing walls...
The other side of an outside wall is an inside wall so there is no difference as they are all the same. Inside walls can also be load bearing but that is irrelevant to mounting this, in fact it means more load is already on the wall. The ability to mount outside provides flexibility when there is no space otherwise. Many connection points are far from places with space to mount. Distributed power systems and micro-production are the future for load balancing and new models of power use. AC Propulsion had this figured out years ago with their EV system with the grid-tied charger/inverter, the motor was the starting basis for the first Teslas.

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Nubo
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Re: Tesla Powerwall

Fri May 01, 2015 10:42 am

EVDRIVER wrote:
Nubo wrote:
AndyH wrote:It wouldn't make good business sense to not use the same battery design. Why do you think that liquid thermal management is a bad idea for BEVs and 'home' use? Musk says the box can be attached to an outside wall...Having lived in Tucson, I know those outside walls can be really toasty...and my San Antonio garage stays above 100°F for more than 3 months each summer...before adding any additional heat...
It seemed to me that he was saying the unit is intended to be mounted on an outside wall. Led me to think there is some heat-sink, heat-exchange or ducting involved. Or maybe it's just a structural thing as outside walls are naturally load-bearing walls...
The other side of an outside wall is an inside wall so there is no difference as they are all the same. Inside walls can also be load bearing but that is irrelevant to mounting this, in fact it means more load is already on the wall. The ability to mount outside provides flexibility when there is no space otherwise. Many connection points are far from places with space to mount. Distributed power systems and micro-production are the future for load balancing and new models of power use. AC Propulsion had this figured out years ago with their EV system with the grid-tied charger/inverter, the motor was the starting basis for the first Teslas.
Hmm... I took it to mean using the inside of an outside wall. I.e., the other side is the outdoors. :)
I noticed you're still working with polymers.

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LTLFTcomposite
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Re: Tesla Powerwall

Fri May 01, 2015 10:52 am

AndyH wrote:Nothing complex about this stuff at all.
That's a technologically privileged view. Home solar is great for hobbyists and nerds and that's what needs to change. IMO Tesla didn't go far enough here to create an offering with mainstream appeal.
LTL
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edatoakrun
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Re: Tesla Powerwall

Fri May 01, 2015 11:05 am

="EVDRIVER"
...The other side of an outside wall is an inside wall so there is no difference as they are all the same...
One difference, which would appear to preclude outside installation in some climates:
...The POWERWALL units are rated for indoor or outdoor installation, and operate in the range of -4°F to 110°F...
http://www.greencarcongress.com/2015/05 ... tesla.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
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