91040
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Re: Dumbest excuses people have given for NOT installing PV

Sat Apr 20, 2019 9:59 am

The pay-off period calculation should include the cost of gasoline that some of this electricity is replacing.
SageBrush wrote: I do agree though that your pay-off period for PV should use 9.9 cents a kWh (and obviously not 7 cents) for the calc since that is your marginal cost.
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SageBrush
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Re: Dumbest excuses people have given for NOT installing PV

Sat Apr 20, 2019 10:12 am

91040 wrote:The pay-off period calculation should include the cost of gasoline that some of this electricity is replacing.
SageBrush wrote: I do agree though that your pay-off period for PV should use 9.9 cents a kWh (and obviously not 7 cents) for the calc since that is your marginal cost.
Tempting to think that way but nothing prevents an EV owner from using grid electricity*.

I agree though that this question can become messy. E.g., consider a homeowner who is putting up PV. The more energy usage they cover, the more there is to spread out the fixed charges of the installation. At its extreme, the marginal cost to also cover an EV can be as low as the cost of the panels + racking. I think this is part of the reason why it is common to read of people that buy EV + PV at the same time.

*I'm obviously ignoring off-grid
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Oilpan4
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Re: Dumbest excuses people have given for NOT installing PV

Sat Apr 20, 2019 8:34 pm

That's why I specifically said base rate.

On the flip side I could get about a $30 power bill for using 60 kwh (with sales tax) and have a 50 cent a kwh overall rate.

If I were to generate more solar power than I use I get paid generation rate. Which is only "3 cents per kwh" according to the coops electrical engineer.
So I would have to generate what I use plus an additional 833 kwh to 0 out that $25 dollar surcharge.
That would take around 5,500w of fixed installed capacity.
I'm only allowed to connect 12kw of panels on a single phase 240v service.
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SageBrush
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Re: Dumbest excuses people have given for NOT installing PV

Sun Apr 21, 2019 5:18 am

Oilpan4 wrote:That's why I specifically said base rate.
You erred in your calculated pay-off time by ~ 40% by using 7 cents a kWh.
2013 LEAF 'S' Model with QC & rear-view camera
Bought off-lease Jan 2017 from N. California
Two years in Colorado, now in NM
03/2018: 58 Ahr, 28k miles
11/2018: 56.16 Ahr, 30k miles
-----
2018 Tesla Model 3 LR, Delivered 6/2018

SageBrush
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Re: Dumbest excuses people have given for NOT installing PV

Sun Apr 21, 2019 5:28 am

Oilpan4 wrote: I pitty the fools who think a 10 to 20 year pay back is acceptable. Ain't nobody got time for that.
'Pitty' is not a word.

A system with a 20 year pay-off is cheaper from day #1 than sticking with utility electricity. If saving money is the only goal then the people you should pity are those without PV.

Why do you ignore the costs of pollution and AGW ?
2013 LEAF 'S' Model with QC & rear-view camera
Bought off-lease Jan 2017 from N. California
Two years in Colorado, now in NM
03/2018: 58 Ahr, 28k miles
11/2018: 56.16 Ahr, 30k miles
-----
2018 Tesla Model 3 LR, Delivered 6/2018

Lothsahn
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Re: Dumbest excuses people have given for NOT installing PV

Sun Apr 21, 2019 9:11 am

SageBrush wrote:You erred in your calculated pay-off time by ~ 40% by using 7 cents a kWh.
This is only true if he can avoid the monthly surcharge by going solar. Ie: If he plans to grid disconnect (in which case, his prices will be MUCH higher as batteries are $$$$$). If he remains connected to the grid, the $25 surcharge should be excluded from the kWh calculation, since he'll still have to pay it with solar. This means that 7 cents a kWh is correct.
Oilpan4 wrote:At the last home and garden show both local Solar companies were there. They were offering a 6kw system for $17,000 after other people's money was applied.
I don't know your area, but that's high in my area. A good quote in my area would be around 2.95c/kWh for a 6kw system, installed, which comes out to $17,700 BEFORE the federal tax credit ($12.4k after other people's money).
Oilpan4 wrote:I want to pay more like $3,000 to $4,000 for 6kw.
Cool? I want lots of things too. But that's not realistic. Parts alone for such a system are around $8,000 ($5,600 after other people's money). Then you have to add on labor, permitting, and other costs.
https://www.wholesalesolar.com/1891564/ ... att-panels

If you utilize used parts and do the install yourself, you may be able to hit 4k. Until then, you'll be paying utility rates for electricity. But even if you did the $5,600 and installed it yourself, your payback would be very very fast.
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SageBrush
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Re: Dumbest excuses people have given for NOT installing PV

Sun Apr 21, 2019 10:43 am

Lothsahn wrote:
SageBrush wrote:You erred in your calculated pay-off time by ~ 40% by using 7 cents a kWh.
This is only true if he can avoid the monthly surcharge by going solar. Ie: If he plans to grid disconnect (in which case, his prices will be MUCH higher as batteries are $$$$$). If he remains connected to the grid, the $25 surcharge should be excluded from the kWh calculation, since he'll still have to pay it with solar. This means that 7 cents a kWh is correct.
No, the 7 cents a kWh Oil-y mentioned is the "base rate" per kWh charged by his utility; it is not the customer per kWh rate after the per kWh avoided fees and taxes are considered.

I can show you an example from my bill in NM, from PNM:

Image

Notice that my "base" kWh charge is 7.8 cents a kWh for the first 450 kWh but I also pay a 2.25 cents per kWh 'fuel adjustment fee' for the fossil sourced component and approximately an extra 9.6% of that amount for taxes and a conservation program. None of these amounts are related to the monthly connection fee aka 'customer charge.'
2013 LEAF 'S' Model with QC & rear-view camera
Bought off-lease Jan 2017 from N. California
Two years in Colorado, now in NM
03/2018: 58 Ahr, 28k miles
11/2018: 56.16 Ahr, 30k miles
-----
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Lothsahn
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Re: Dumbest excuses people have given for NOT installing PV

Sun Apr 21, 2019 8:04 pm

SageBrush wrote:No, the 7 cents a kWh Oil-y mentioned is the "base rate" per kWh charged by his utility; it is not the customer per kWh rate after the per kWh avoided fees and taxes are considered.
Okay, I stand corrected then on the 7c/kWh. As I stated before, all per-kWh fees should be included in the kWh calculation, except any fixed fees. Fixed fees, such as his $25/mth connection fee should NOT be included.
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smkettner
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Location: Orange County, CA

Re: Dumbest excuses people have given for NOT installing PV

Sun Apr 21, 2019 8:39 pm

SageBrush wrote:I can show you an example from my bill in NM, from PNM:

Image
Renewables cost looks favorable on that bill. Maybe the utility should expand that source.
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SageBrush
Posts: 4746
Joined: Sun Mar 06, 2011 2:28 am
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Location: NM

Re: Dumbest excuses people have given for NOT installing PV

Sun Apr 21, 2019 9:47 pm

reposted
2013 LEAF 'S' Model with QC & rear-view camera
Bought off-lease Jan 2017 from N. California
Two years in Colorado, now in NM
03/2018: 58 Ahr, 28k miles
11/2018: 56.16 Ahr, 30k miles
-----
2018 Tesla Model 3 LR, Delivered 6/2018

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