Considering a Leaf in NH

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fiddlegeek

New member
Joined
Dec 11, 2013
Messages
2
Just got back from test driving a Leaf. The sales guys weren't much help in answering my questions, they clearly had very little knowledge or experience with the car.

From the reading I've done, I think I'm almost an ideal candidate for a Leaf. I have a 22-mile commute each way, mostly on back country roads at 40-50MPH, and my office is putting in a charging station that will be up for use in January. I have an old Pontiac Vibe AWD that I'd keep for long trips and snowy days.

But - I'm still nervous about making the investment. I'd love to get some thoughts, particularly from other owners in NH, because I'm really getting the sense that it's new territory around here.

Also - own vs. lease? I'm reading a lot of comments advocating leasing, but I normally prefer to buy my cars and drive them into the ground. (My Vibe is 11 years old with 210,000 miles on it. Just sank $3000 into overhauling it earlier this year.) Leasing seems like paying a lot of money for nothing - but if the battery is going to die a few years in and make the car useless, or uneconomical to maintain, then maybe that's not the best option.
 
Battery degradation is one reason for leasing. While that may not be an issue where you are, what will be is resale value. If you truly want to go the purchase route, you may want to consider a low-mileage model from a cool-summer area such as the Pacific Northwest, and let someone else take the hit on depreciation.

Your commute should be fine for the Leaf especially if you will have access to charging at work.
 
fiddlegeek said:
Leasing seems like paying a lot of money for nothing - but if the battery is going to die a few years in and make the car useless, or uneconomical to maintain, then maybe that's not the best option.
No, leasing is not paying a lot of money for nothing. I had never leased a car before I got my first LEAF, but I have become a believer. There are two ways to look at it, and you can come out ahead either way by leasing:
  1. Compare to buying a car with a down payment and a loan. For an equivalent down payment the monthly lease payment will be considerably lower than the loan payment, even if you stretch the purchase loan out over six years. Either way you have borrowed maybe $20K to $30K dollars from someone, and you have to expect there will be some interest cost involved. If you buy, rather than lease, a new car with a long-term loan you really don't make much of any value headway during the first two years, due to depreciation. So basically those monthly payments on the purchase loan are a lot of money for nothing.
  2. At the end of the lease you can always buy the car for the residual price, which might be only 60% of the original price. That residual price is locked in when you sign for the lease. So think of your lease payments as monthly payments on a purchase loan, then take out a much smaller loan at the end of the lease to finance the residual price. The advantage is that you have an option to purchase at the end of the lease, but you aren't committed. If the car (including the battery) is in good condition and the market price is higher than the residual, you win and Nissan loses. If the market price is lower than the residual, walk away. You come out even and Nissan has a turkey on its hands.

Ray
 
I live in Upstate NY and have a 21.5-22.5 mile commute. I have three available routes, from 'slow and flat' to 'hilly and fast' (the one I usually take). I only got the 'low battery warning' for the second time yesterday (I've had the car since may 31st), and it wasn't while commuting. As long as you realize that in cold weather you will want to charge to 100%, you should be fine. The car can handle your weather. Heck, I use 120 volt charging, too! Oh, and I agree that leasing is the way to go. If your car proves to have an exceptional battery you can always buy it at the end of the lease. Otherwise, think of it as your "First Leaf" and plan on maybe buying a next generation model. Finally, don't get a model S. You need the better heater in the SV and SL models.
 
If you want new, I'd do a 2 yr lease, for the reasons above, plus EVs are getting better and less expensive, and they'll be more to choose from here in future. Also, with new, you're under warranty, and it's still new tech. Compare prices to Marlboro Nissan, RT 20, MA.

But for a 22 mile ride when you can charge at work too? Consider that they'll soon be a lot of used LEAFs coming off lease and available relatively cheap. Find one with a good battery and you could ride it into the ground all you like. By the time the pack is so degraded you can't get 22 miles from it, there may be better replacement batteries available.
 
fiddlegeek said:
Just got back from test driving a Leaf. The sales guys weren't much help in answering my questions, they clearly had very little knowledge or experience with the car.

From the reading I've done, I think I'm almost an ideal candidate for a Leaf. I have a 22-mile commute each way, mostly on back country roads at 40-50MPH, and my office is putting in a charging station that will be up for use in January. I have an old Pontiac Vibe AWD that I'd keep for long trips and snowy days.

But - I'm still nervous about making the investment. I'd love to get some thoughts, particularly from other owners in NH, because I'm really getting the sense that it's new territory around here.

Also - own vs. lease? I'm reading a lot of comments advocating leasing, but I normally prefer to buy my cars and drive them into the ground. (My Vibe is 11 years old with 210,000 miles on it. Just sank $3000 into overhauling it earlier this year.) Leasing seems like paying a lot of money for nothing - but if the battery is going to die a few years in and make the car useless, or uneconomical to maintain, then maybe that's not the best option.
you do seem like a good prospect for a LEAF, that said, you should be aware that the car's range can be limited by the very cold weather.
as for leasing vs. buying, the consensus has been that leasing is a better idea because of the rapid changes in the technology and the issue of battery degradation. if you buy you are shouldering the risk that a newer more efficient or less expensive technology will hit the market destroying the value of your car and/or the loss of range over time because the battery has lost some of it's capacity. YMMV
good luck
 
1. Lease don't buy
2. Sounds like you're in a good place the two concerns I would have would be elevation and snow. I don't know NH geography. If you're hilly and snowy that 44 mile round trip could be nervous in the winter if you can't charge at the office at least for a little bit on 120 if you run the heater. Check the math on a lease, you'll want to get at least 15k miles. 40 miles * 365 = 14,600... yes i know you won't drive to work on the weekends but trust me, you'll drive the car big time when you get it.
 
fiddlegeek said:
Also - own vs. lease? I'm reading a lot of comments advocating leasing, but I normally prefer to buy my cars and drive them into the ground. (My Vibe is 11 years old with 210,000 miles on it. Just sank $3000 into overhauling it earlier this year.) Leasing seems like paying a lot of money for nothing - but if the battery is going to die a few years in and make the car useless, or uneconomical to maintain, then maybe that's not the best option.

Battery life model predicts 70% (normal End Of Life or EOL) in 8.7 years and 95,000 miles (11,000 miles a year, Boston MA, always parked in shade, 4 miles/kWh), or 70% in 6.5 years and 104,000 miles (16,000 miles a year). You might be able to use the car beyond EOL, perhaps well beyond EOL if workplace charging is always available. And replacing the battery should be an option, a replacement battery (guess for price in 7 years = $5000) should allow for long term lower cost ownership than leasing in cooler climates.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AqhUVOciAXVhdEFId2ppVEViZmd0ckJxME95N0U4SUE&usp=sharing" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

http://www.mynissanleaf.com/wiki/index.php?title=Battery_Capacity_Loss" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

The biggest issue with owning is that Nissan hasn't figured out what they want to sell replacement batteries for. Until they do, it looks harder to keep a car longer term, which makes leasing look more attractive. I've bought, and I'm still happy with that. I'm near Seattle, and in a better climate than most, but I'd strongly suggest you read the wiki for battery loss before you buy. Lease? No worries on the battery in Boston area as long as you remember you will lose some capacity.
 
I'm a month shy of 2 years with my LEAF in southern NH. my commute is ~15 miles round trip - so I'm not stressing the car at all - With 44 miles RT, you won't likely need to at work charging, but that lowers your risk significantly. most important for winter, really. I bought my car - mostly because I didn't want to deal with a new car in three years. My capacity (pre 3227, via leafspylite) is ~95% still.

where in the state are you?
 
essaunders said:
I'm a month shy of 2 years with my LEAF in southern NH. my commute is ~15 miles round trip - so I'm not stressing the car at all - With 44 miles RT, you won't likely need to at work charging, but that lowers your risk significantly. most important for winter, really. I bought my car - mostly because I didn't want to deal with a new car in three years. My capacity (pre 3227, via leafspylite) is ~95% still.

where in the state are you?

Seacoast, Exeter area and I'm commuting up to Dover.

Based on the info above, I'm *almost* convinced I should lease. Now I just need to decide on sooner vs later. Could I get a better deal if I wait till 2014?

Also selection seems to be pretty limited in the Northeast. What are my chances of getting it in red? :)
 
The 14s are just about to come out, no price announced yet, but may be cheaper. Should be able to get a good deal on a 13 whatever happens. A good dealer will get you the color you want.
 
fiddlegeek said:
What are my chances of getting it in red? :)

I have Red, and its shade goes very well with the black interior.

However, be warned that quality of the paint job is average at best. I managed to inflict scratches with a plastic ice-scraper. Now I'm more careful.

Apparently, the quality of the black and glacier white paint jobs is the worst. Pearl white is the best (on the LEAF scale) with red and silver being average. Not sure about blue.
 
fiddlegeek said:
essaunders said:
I'm a month shy of 2 years with my LEAF in southern NH. my commute is ~15 miles round trip - so I'm not stressing the car at all - With 44 miles RT, you won't likely need to at work charging, but that lowers your risk significantly. most important for winter, really. I bought my car - mostly because I didn't want to deal with a new car in three years. My capacity (pre 3227, via leafspylite) is ~95% still.

where in the state are you?

Seacoast, Exeter area and I'm commuting up to Dover.

Based on the info above, I'm *almost* convinced I should lease. Now I just need to decide on sooner vs later. Could I get a better deal if I wait till 2014?

Also selection seems to be pretty limited in the Northeast. What are my chances of getting it in red? :)

I think you have to get an SL to get red, but some dealerships do have them. See if you can get exactly the car you want shipped to your local dealership. If not, contact other dealerships in the region and ask about them sending you the car, which your local dealer will still have to service. One important thing about leasing: don't go for the attractive low monthly payment (like I did!): your big down payment will likely be lost if the car is wrecked. Instead, go for zero down and "fold" all costs into your monthly payment. That way if the car is totaled you can start fresh with a new lease and no regrets.
 
There are no restriction on what trim levels the Cayenne Red color is put on, but there may not be many of them on the dealer lots, since the dealer inventory is based off what they requested. I have a 2013 Leaf SV (Cayenne Red exterior, Black interior), but I got that by placing a "factory order".
 
Hi Fiddlegeek,

You sound like a perfect candidate. A non-highway rural commute will be fairly efficient, not as good as all city, but way better than highway. I live in the Concord area. My best full trip was to UNH and back on Rt. 4 in May in light rain. My 2012 SL made the 85 mile round trip with about 6 miles to spare. But going to Nashua or Salem at 65 mph in summer is a stretch for the 65 mile round trip so I don't even try it in the winter.

I bought mine because at the time I planned to keep it for 10+ years and the lease was $439/month. Now I would seriously consider the $199/month lease. At 20 months and 15,000 miles I have not noticed any battery degradation but a lease would eliminate that risk.
 
While I do understand the rational for leasing, I'm personally still not crazy about driving a car that I don't own, and getting into perpetual payments. My feeling is that if it's not worth buying, then it's not worth getting.

From a personal finance point of view, the only LEAF I'd consider buying would be a used vehicle with a decent battery. Someone else has already taken a big depreciation hit. You should then be able to derive enough value from the car even if replacing the battery pack ends up not being a reasonable option. And you're not automatically looking to make another trip to the dealership in three years. (Car dealers love leasers...)

By the way, with decent tires, the LEAF does great on snow and ice. The low center of gravity helps handling and road adhesion, as does the smoothness with which the electric drivetrain can deliver power.
 
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