lkkms2
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CA - AB1591 - $165 flat fee for zero-emission vehicles

Sun Jan 24, 2016 2:46 am

drees wrote:
GRA wrote:Here in CA, Gov. Brown's asking again for a hike in the gas tax. We'll see if he can get the legislature to go for it: http://www.smdailyjournal.com/articles/ ... 57252.html
WTF - a flat fee for EVs is mentioned in there.
Frazier’s AB1591 would raise $7 billion a year through higher gas and diesel taxes, a $38 annual registration fee increase and a new $165 annual fee on zero-emission vehicles whose owners don’t pay anything into the gas tax fund.
Let's see. I drive 11,000 miles a year. $165/11,000 = 1.5 cents a mile. Average car gets around say 25 MPG.

25 x 1.5 cents = 37.5 cents "extra" tax per gallon equivalent! How do they justify this!!
(Where is the carbon tax to level the playing field!)

Also in San Diego and other counties in California there are sales taxes passed by propositions for transportation needs. Every time I buy something I am also contributing to transportation funds

drees, I think we may need a separate heading for this topic of discussion for here in California!

MODERATORS NOTE: Much of this thread split off from here: Gasoline May Rise Above $5 a Gallon
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Bufordleaf
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Re: Gasoline May Rise Above $5 a Gallon

Sun Jan 24, 2016 5:59 am

Many of you may not want to hear this, but as EV drivers we need to step up to the plate and pay for the transportation infrastructure we use. Roads and bridges are not cheap, and as others have noted we need to spend much more on maintaining them to a safe standard than we currently spend in total, even without adding new lanes or roads. I'm in Georgia, I pay a $200 annual fee on my Leaf, and I'm totally OK with that. When compared to what the average driver (getting say 25 mpg) pays in combined state and federal gas tax this is fair. Now, I'm also totally in support of a big gas tax hike right now while prices are this low. Makes perfect sense to do this now as most people will not even notice and it will raise huge $$ for infrastructure.

Someone else mentioned a sales tax, and IMO this is exactly the way to go. Everything you buy from a store or online that is shipped to your house is trucked across this country using the roads. Therefore a sales tax to support transportation infrastructure is completely logical; the more stuff you buy the more you have "used" the roads so the more you pay. Eventually we have to adopt another form of revenue generation outside of gas tax because the world is moving away from ICE slowly but surely. EVs and other AFVs still need roads even thought we don't burn any dead dinosaurs.
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DanCar
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Re: Gasoline May Rise Above $5 a Gallon

Sun Jan 24, 2016 6:26 am

Bufordleaf wrote:... but as EV drivers we need to step up to the plate and pay for the transportation infrastructure we use...
I think it is more important to help the polluters to stop polluting by increasing the taxes on polluting.
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DaveEV
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CA - AB1591 - $165 flat fee for zero-emission vehicles

Sun Jan 24, 2016 2:01 pm

Saw this after reading an article GRA posted in the $5 gas thread:

Tax fight over roads could dominate state Legislature - The Daily Journal
Frazier’s AB1591 would raise $7 billion a year through higher gas and diesel taxes, a $38 annual registration fee increase and a new $165 annual fee on zero-emission vehicles whose owners don’t pay anything into the gas tax fund.
I haven't read the bill in detail, but I absolutely detest these kinds of flat fees for vehicles that don't use gas for a couple reasons:

Full bill text: https://leginfo.legislature.ca.gov/face ... 0160AB1591

1. It unfairly costs people who drive few miles more than people who drive a lot.
2. The per-mile costs typically end up much higher than the equivalent gas burning vehicle.

Now I am not against paying what one might call their "fair share". I'd be happy to. I just don't want to be gouged for trying to do the right thing.

A better plan:
Make the road tax commensurate with vehicle weight and miles driven. Heavier vehicles do much more damage to roads than light vehicles. Simply plug in your odometer reading when you pay your annual license to calculate.

Now if we also want to include a pollution tax (polluters must pay for the damage to people's health they contribute to), we could also include a fee based on the emissions of the vehicle as tested. For example, there could be an additional tax based on NOx emissions / mile.

TimLee
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Re: Gasoline May Rise Above $5 a Gallon

Sun Jan 24, 2016 2:40 pm

DanCar wrote:... I think it is more important to help the polluters to stop polluting by increasing the taxes on polluting.
A technically wonderful concept, but politically completely unworkable.

In conservative TN the governor has already given up on an increase in gasoline tax this year.
Even though many in industry and engineering fields support it there is NO WAY he can get the votes.

I agree alternative fuel vehicles need to help pay for road maintenance.

I have paid nothing in 4 1/2 years driving a LEAF.
That is wrong.

But much more likely politicians will correct that and start charging me before they do the other right thing and raise the tax on fossil fuels.
Even if gas drops to $1.25 a gallon.
And it might get there this year.

Tim Lee
Chattanooga, TN

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pkulak
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Re: Gasoline May Rise Above $5 a Gallon

Sun Jan 24, 2016 4:20 pm

Well, we'll see if it goes anywhere, but Portland is working on a new gas tax:

http://bikeportland.org/2016/01/24/173183-173183

mbender
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Re: Gasoline May Rise Above $5 a Gallon

Sun Jan 24, 2016 11:46 pm

lkkms2 wrote:Let's see. I drive 11,000 miles a year. $165/11,000 = 1.5 cents a mile. Average car gets around say 25 MPG.

25 x 1.5 cents = 37.5 cents "extra" tax per gallon equivalent! How do they justify this!!
(Where is the carbon tax to level the playing field!)
I think they justify it by taxing gasoline somewhere around 40 cents per gallon.
(They also probably consider that to be a field-leveling carbon tax, or vice versa.)

No question the gas tax is too low, however. At the very least, they could/should have indexed it to inflation in 1993.
drees wrote:
GRA wrote:Here in CA, Gov. Brown's asking again for a hike in the gas tax. We'll see if he can get the legislature to go for it: http://www.smdailyjournal.com/articles/ ... 57252.html
WTF - a flat fee for EVs is mentioned in there.
Frazier’s AB1591 would raise $7 billion a year through higher gas and diesel taxes, a $38 annual registration fee increase and a new $165 annual fee on zero-emission vehicles whose owners don’t pay anything into the gas tax fund.
I think I just felt my paradigm shift.

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jpadc
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Re: Gasoline May Rise Above $5 a Gallon

Mon Jan 25, 2016 11:18 am

lkkms2 wrote:Let's see. I drive 11,000 miles a year. $165/11,000 = 1.5 cents a mile. Average car gets around say 25 MPG.

25 x 1.5 cents = 37.5 cents "extra" tax per gallon equivalent! How do they justify this!!
(Where is the carbon tax to level the playing field!)!
Well, including sales taxes it seems the best number I can find is that California residents are paying about 42 cents per gallon tax for gas right now (before any increase) of which you pay 0. So someone who has a 25 mile per gallon car is paying $184.80 for those same 11,000 miles today and has been for years. So even the $165 for EV owners in the bill is less than they pay before they get increased. Yes, they may pollute more but they do no more damage to the road than you. So how do you justify that?

Gas taxes are the most regressive of taxes and hit poor (and predominately minority) residence of CA the hardest (not to mention that housing prices and policies in CA force the poor to live further out so they have to drive more miles in less efficient cars to get to work) all while affluent EV owners exercise their privilege cruising along in HOV lanes (which fails to reduce the number of cars on the roads creating more carbon and pollution for everyone) and demand more taxes on "them" to level the playing field to avoid paying for the roads they use.

Sounds more like: "I support tax increases for thee, but not for me."
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jpadc
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Re: CA - AB1591 - $165 flat fee for zero-emission vehicles

Mon Jan 25, 2016 2:20 pm

drees wrote:
I haven't read the bill in detail, but I absolutely detest these kinds of flat fees for vehicles that don't use gas for a couple reasons:

Full bill text: https://leginfo.legislature.ca.gov/face ... 0160AB1591

1. It unfairly costs people who drive few miles more than people who drive a lot.
2. The per-mile costs typically end up much higher than the equivalent gas burning vehicle.
Well the rough calcs I did in the other thread suggests the other thread suggests that the $165 is likely a little light in CA which has about a 42 cent per gallon tax (which I've seen other argue its as high as $1.00 a gallon depending on what all you consider) but assuming and average car getting 25 miles per gallon and driving a fairly low average of 11,000 miles a year, they are paying $185 per year (before any increase).
drees wrote:A better plan:
Make the road tax commensurate with vehicle weight and miles driven. Heavier vehicles do much more damage to roads than light vehicles. Simply plug in your odometer reading when you pay your annual license to calculate.
On this, we agree :D

vehicle class * miles driven and drop the gas tax for all. The DMV knows your vehicle class, you report miles annually and pay the tax. Fair to all!
Last edited by jpadc on Tue Jan 26, 2016 3:19 am, edited 3 times in total.
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Stoaty
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Re: CA - AB1591 - $165 flat fee for zero-emission vehicles

Mon Jan 25, 2016 2:59 pm

At 10,000 miles a year that is 1.65 cents per mile. A fair share unless you don't drive much. Agree with vehicle weight and miles driven as the fairest way to divide up. I am against any fee that discourages BEV adoption at this point though, because we need to get off fossil fuels ASAP.
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