Cor
Posts: 161
Joined: Sun Jun 30, 2013 6:53 am
Delivery Date: 07 Jul 2015

Re: Anybody with 2011 or 2012 interested in upgrade to new battery?

Wed Aug 31, 2016 4:50 pm

cwerdna wrote:Side question: Can you confirm that was no fan found inside both the 2011 and 2015 pack?
Correct, no fans inside. The battery pack is completely sealed, although I had one pack where dust tracked inside from a gap between the shell and the disconnect, where there is a hole in the shell to allow pulling the disconnect plug to disable the HV. But thepack is supposed to be hermetically sealed.
The packs I worked on (4 in total) had no battery heaters either since they were from warmer climates (California mostly, I don't know why the Washington state pack did not have a battery heater, maybe the car started its life somewhere else?)

cwerdna
Posts: 9664
Joined: Fri Jun 03, 2011 4:31 pm
Delivery Date: 28 Jul 2013
Location: SF Bay Area, CA

Re: Anybody with 2011 or 2012 interested in upgrade to new battery?

Wed Aug 31, 2016 5:18 pm

Cor wrote:The packs I worked on (4 in total) had no battery heaters either since they were from warmer climates (California mostly, I don't know why the Washington state pack did not have a battery heater, maybe the car started its life somewhere else?)
Odd... but not surprising (?) if they were '11s. Battery heater became a forced feature (IIRC) on '12+ models.

'19 Bolt Premier
'13 Leaf SV w/premium package (owned)
'13 Leaf SV w/QC + LED & premium packages (lease over, car returned)

Please don't PM me with Leaf questions. Just post in the topic that seems most appropriate.

GRA
Posts: 10860
Joined: Mon Sep 19, 2011 1:49 pm
Location: East side of San Francisco Bay

Re: Anybody with 2011 or 2012 interested in upgrade to new battery?

Wed Aug 31, 2016 7:08 pm

cwerdna wrote:
Cor wrote:The packs I worked on (4 in total) had no battery heaters either since they were from warmer climates (California mostly, I don't know why the Washington state pack did not have a battery heater, maybe the car started its life somewhere else?)
Odd... but not surprising (?) if they were '11s. Battery heater became a forced feature (IIRC) on '12+ models.
Right, late '11s offered them as part of the Cold Weather option package.
Guy [I have lots of experience designing/selling off-grid AE systems, some using EVs but don't own one. Local trips are by foot, bike and/or rapid transit].

The 'best' is the enemy of 'good enough'. Copper shot, not Silver bullets.

Cor
Posts: 161
Joined: Sun Jun 30, 2013 6:53 am
Delivery Date: 07 Jul 2015

Re: (again) Anybody with 2011 or 2012 interested in upgrade to new 2016 battery?

Sun Sep 04, 2016 4:03 pm

I might be able to get my hands on a brand new 2016 pack for a 2011 warranty replacement.
The price is going to be higher than my first offer, which was for a 2015 pack that was already in my car.
This time it is a pack that still needs to be delivered to the dealer.
I will try to arrange it such that you can have it installed in your car by the dealer, instead of in the car that qualifies for the warranty,
though I do not know if the dealer will fall for that. I can ask.
Else it will be installed in the warranty car and immediately taken out and installed in your car.
Warranty: if I replace it and you do not like the result, I will take it back and mount your original pack back in your car.
(if the dealer installs the pack in your car, obviously you are committed as they return your old pack)
I am thinking of $5000 for this brand new 2016 "Lizard cell" 24kWh pack, including installation in your car.
Who is interested, preferably driving distance from Silicon Valley?

Cor
Posts: 161
Joined: Sun Jun 30, 2013 6:53 am
Delivery Date: 07 Jul 2015

Re: (again) Anybody with 2011 or 2012 interested in upgrade to new 2016 battery?

Mon Oct 24, 2016 12:42 am

Cor wrote:I will try to arrange it such that you can have it installed in your car by the dealer, instead of in the car that qualifies for the warranty, though I do not know if the dealer will fall for that. I can ask.
I found out that the dealer actually needs to send a photo of the old and the new pack sitting next to each other,
both with the correct battery identification (serial number) to corporate Nissan in order to get paid for the warranty work,
so it is impossible to mount a warranty replacement battery into a different car.
In other words - the only way is still to have the battery delivered and installed as expected, then rip it out,
cut it open (since it is glued shut) and harvest the modules to be mounted into someone's old battery shell after
removing the modules - this includes swapping the BMS wiring from the old to the new modules as the original BMS
must stay with the car, so also the BMS wiring (the new harness is different).
Cor wrote:Who is interested, preferably driving distance from Silicon Valley?
Today I installed the warranty modules into a local Leaf owner's car.
Took most of the day but he drove away tonight with better-than-new range.
Note that it takes 2 hours hustling to just swap the wire harnesses on the modules.
The only specialty tool needed is a T30 security Torx for the cover around the service disconnect.
The rest is just good mechanical skills and enough knowledge of electricity that you know what you can touch and where to stay away.
Two jack stands, a hydraulic jack and a furniture dolly,
a small screwdriver and preferably two ratchets: a big one with 3ft handle extension to break loose the 17mm head mounting bolts of the shell and the 16mm nuts of the stiffening bar inside the pack, the extension is not needed for the 13mm mounting bolts and nuts of the module stacks; the smaller ratchet with 10 mm for most everything else. So, pretty standard stuff. But a lot of prying and fumbling to get all the harness tie-downs loose or opening the latch of the tie-wraps and opening security covers and prying out temp sensors and ....

mxp
Posts: 761
Joined: Fri Apr 23, 2010 9:32 pm
Delivery Date: 26 Jun 2015
Location: Fremont, CA

Re: (again) Anybody with 2011 or 2012 interested in upgrade to new 2016 battery?

Tue Oct 25, 2016 8:53 am

Interesting project. Great stuff!
What was the total amount of time taken for you to start and finish the swap?
Was it close to what the "book time" requested by the dealers for this work?

Thanks.
Cor wrote:
Cor wrote:I will try to arrange it such that you can have it installed in your car by the dealer, instead of in the car that qualifies for the warranty, though I do not know if the dealer will fall for that. I can ask.
I found out that the dealer actually needs to send a photo of the old and the new pack sitting next to each other,
both with the correct battery identification (serial number) to corporate Nissan in order to get paid for the warranty work,
so it is impossible to mount a warranty replacement battery into a different car.
In other words - the only way is still to have the battery delivered and installed as expected, then rip it out,
cut it open (since it is glued shut) and harvest the modules to be mounted into someone's old battery shell after
removing the modules - this includes swapping the BMS wiring from the old to the new modules as the original BMS
must stay with the car, so also the BMS wiring (the new harness is different).
Cor wrote:Who is interested, preferably driving distance from Silicon Valley?
Today I installed the warranty modules into a local Leaf owner's car.
Took most of the day but he drove away tonight with better-than-new range.
Note that it takes 2 hours hustling to just swap the wire harnesses on the modules.
The only specialty tool needed is a T30 security Torx for the cover around the service disconnect.
The rest is just good mechanical skills and enough knowledge of electricity that you know what you can touch and where to stay away.
Two jack stands, a hydraulic jack and a furniture dolly,
a small screwdriver and preferably two ratchets: a big one with 3ft handle extension to break loose the 17mm head mounting bolts of the shell and the 16mm nuts of the stiffening bar inside the pack, the extension is not needed for the 13mm mounting bolts and nuts of the module stacks; the smaller ratchet with 10 mm for most everything else. So, pretty standard stuff. But a lot of prying and fumbling to get all the harness tie-downs loose or opening the latch of the tie-wraps and opening security covers and prying out temp sensors and ....

Cor
Posts: 161
Joined: Sun Jun 30, 2013 6:53 am
Delivery Date: 07 Jul 2015

Re: (again) Anybody with 2011 or 2012 interested in upgrade to new 2016 battery?

Thu Oct 27, 2016 12:49 am

mxp wrote:Interesting project. Great stuff!
What was the total amount of time taken for you to start and finish the swap?
Was it close to what the "book time" requested by the dealers for this work?
The dealer never swaps module stacks out of a battery.
At the dealer, they only touch the battery case when wearing their high voltage isolating gloves
and they are certainly not going to open a battery voluntarily and voiding the warranty.
At the dealer, they drop the battery case after disconnecting the 12V battery and disconnecting the 2 or 3 plugs
(depending if you have battery warmers or not) by unbolting the 2 or 5 10mm bolts in the little straps
and then the 10 or 12 (old/new style battery) bolts that hold the battery to the frame.
Oh and of course, first remove the 3 battery covers, the plastic belly pan pieces. About 20 10mm bolts and 20 push pins or so.
Once the battery is dropped, the replacement goes in with reverse order of disassembly.
Then the Nissan computer gets involved - there is a paper that comes with the new battery that holds a key
that has to be entered into the Nissan tool to register the battery to the car, the car's computer gets updated to
recognise the new battery computer and they are done.

For me, since I have no access to the Nissan software tools, the only option is to keep the same battery computer with the car.
For my own 2011 Leaf I lucked out, it had a 2016 battery and I had bought a 2015 battery that was a warranty replacement on a 2011
so it already had the correct plug for a 2011 and I could swap the computer from the new installed 2016 battery into that 2015 pack,
re-seal that pack and remount it into my car. That was a (long) evening of work but it did not involve moving module stacks.
Then, the removed 2016 pack minus computer was completely dis-assembled down to module stacks without wiring and the 2011
BMS wiring was installed on them, in order to be able to swap them into a degraded 2011 pack.
The degraded pack that came out of that 2011 received the 2016 wiring and the 2015 BMS so it was again a complete set, to go into an EV truck. Nothing was wasted, but as I said - just swapping the BMS wiring on the 3 module stacks takes about 2 hours of hustling.
Cutting open the new style shell is about half an hour, depending how lucky I get with the knife cutting the glue apart.
The longest time it seems is taken when switching BS wiring and the mounting spots of the wiring changes so the brackets can not fit
on one of the existing bolts. I always find myself untying the HV wires, in order to get it to move over an inch and fit on the mounting
bolts on the halfpack.
Making sure the shell is again waterproof upon closing is another big thing.
And knowing how to jack it up again so it comes into the correct position for bolting it back on.

Valdemar
Posts: 2621
Joined: Tue May 10, 2011 10:32 pm
Delivery Date: 09 Sep 2011
Location: Oak Park, CA

Re: Anybody with 2011 or 2012 interested in upgrade to new battery?

Thu Oct 27, 2016 5:02 pm

There were stories here about dealers swapping out individual modules that failed.
'11 SL, totaled
-1CB@33k/21mo, -2CB@53k/33mo, -3CB@68k/41mo, -4CB(41.5AHr)@79k/49mo, -5CB(38.85AHr)@87.5k/54mo
-0CB(66.14AHr)@87.5k/54mo (BBB), -1CB(53.92Ahr)@140k/29mo,
51.1AHr, SOH 80%, 150k miles

9kW Solar

Cor
Posts: 161
Joined: Sun Jun 30, 2013 6:53 am
Delivery Date: 07 Jul 2015

Re: Anybody with 2011 or 2012 interested in upgrade to new battery?

Fri Oct 28, 2016 4:23 pm

Valdemar wrote:There were stories here about dealers swapping out individual modules that failed.
All deteriorated batteries that I have seen till now have all modules equally deteriorated,
so while it may be possible that there are packs where a single module started failing faster and by replacing the single module
the pack was again within spec (marginally), I have not seen that - all cells stay pretty nicely in balance at different charge levels,
so their capacity is the same, else they would differ more than the approx 20mV that LeafSpy reports at different charge levels.

So, I am wondering if those stories are just a "possibility that dealers could bring a pack back in spec IF a single module failed,
similar to the Prius pack often having one or a few cells failing ahead of others due to the lowest capacity cell being extra stressed
as a result of not having any BMS that can balance the pack, only a "gentle over-charging" as a way of rebalancing a pack that is
deteriorating? I have replaced a single module in a Prius pack of a friend whose 2005 started reporting imbalance in one module
and that car has been running fine ever since.

Another reason to doubt the reports of dealers replacing a module: All info from dealers that I am aware of show that they stay
as far away from the battery packs as they can and only handle it with high voltage gloves by specially trained technicians.
I do not see any dealer taking on the liability to have their technicians open up the high voltage pack and be exposed to the
lethal voltages inside that cannot be turned off because there is no on/off switch on batteries and in order to replace a module,
you have to touch live high voltage. I know have worked on 8 Leaf packs so far and I know what I am doing, but I don't think
any dealer wants to have that liability. Just a thought...
Please post any documented cases of people having a refurbished pack put in by a dealer.
I only know of refurbished packs that have been done by individuals like myself and then it was always all 48 modules being replaced
since their capacity must be similar ("matched") so the easiest way to achieve that is to keep the modules from one pack together.
In fact, I have take packs apart that I have to take care of to keep all modules of one pack together and not mix with others
or I risk that the BMS starts "balancing" cells to a different SoC so I will always have a large difference between cells...

Cor
Posts: 161
Joined: Sun Jun 30, 2013 6:53 am
Delivery Date: 07 Jul 2015

Re: Anybody with 2011 or 2012 interested in upgrade to new battery?

Fri Oct 28, 2016 4:34 pm

BTW, in the near future I will have to buy another battery pack since I need to get a complete set of Leaf computers for a vehicle to move, which is currently having a mis-matched set of 2013 computers: LBC, BCM and VCM plus intelligent key, so that they see each other and
allow the vehicle to move again.
In order to harvest the LBC (BMS computer) I will need to buy the complete battery pack, open it and swap the BMS with the one from the vehicle, so I will have another battery pack available for someone who wants to re-invigorate their Leaf with additional range (provided that I can find a relatively young pack with decent capacity). Let me know if you are interested.

Oh and the upgrade is not limited to old Leafs, I have even seen a 2015 with deteriorated battery pack because it had more miles on the car than my own 2011 has. So any Leaf can get new range by installing a higher capacity battery pack, including 2013, 2014 and 2015. Note that these are all nominal 24 kWh packs, not the new 30kWh 2016 pack. I hope to get my hands on that one some day...

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