GroundLoop
Posts: 1725
Joined: Mon Sep 13, 2010 9:31 pm

Re: San Diego Leaf Fanatics!

Tue Oct 05, 2010 10:52 pm

If your PV regularly overproduces during peak hours (because you don't use A/C, for example), then it seems like a TOU structure could be advantageous. That was my reason for trying it, and I was surprised to find that the overall increase in the cost of off-peak energy (from DR) and Winter was swamping my production credits during the Summer day.

I went back to DR, since Baseline/130% under DR is so affordable, and the whole year is one simple number of total kWh.

With EPEV, and the extreme spreads between peak/off-peak, the same question comes up.

What if I can apply my PV during the peak time to generate credits at a huge multiplier? If the EV meter "runs backwards", that would be the way to go -- relocate the PV to the secondary meter and get PAID at $0.38 while paying $0.06 to charge at night. Somehow, I doubt the EV meter will be enabled for generation, and that's some electrical work to attempt.

A more likely abuse would be non-EV loads on the EV circuit. If there are five hours of $0.07 power every night, wouldn't you want to charge up a large UPS and power your computers the rest of the day? Even with the UPS battery losses, you'd be money ahead of DR.

Or build your own DC fast-charger -- pump up a bank of cells every night, and then dump the energy into your EV any time of day via DC.

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sdbonez
Posts: 468
Joined: Tue Sep 28, 2010 11:44 pm
Delivery Date: 26 Jun 2015
Location: San Diego, Ca (San Marcos)

Re: San Diego Leaf Fanatics!

Wed Oct 06, 2010 12:29 am

drees wrote:Wow - that's impressive. Do you have the corresponding PV generation to go with the consumption?

Code: Select all

Date         Usage  Generation
05/01/09   1024    139.5
06/02/09   1176    1265.5
07/01/09   1282    1139
07/31/09   1445    1213
08/31/09   1427    1220
09/30/09   1601    1061
10/29/09   1155    897
12/01/09   1099    889
12/31/09   1480    633
02/01/10   1258    712
03/03/10   1043    791
04/01/10   1074    1038
05/03/10   1294    1145
06/02/10   1142    1168
07/01/10   908      1094
08/02/10   1358    1068
Once I update/groom the data a bit, it'll be posted on the web monthly...just haven't gotten to it.
drees wrote:I'd wager you have some big vampire draws of power that you aren't aware of. Do you have a pool or hot tub or something?
Big vampire draws...but am aware of them. No pool, but yes, 240v hot tub (which is surprisingly efficient, btw - I swear it costs more to run the filter cycle then it does to keep it at 101F).. and 2 3-ton A/C units which get a good amount of use and a ton of equipment.
drees wrote:I averaged your last 12 months - came to 1235 kWh/mo.
My last 12 months averaged about 445 kWh/mo. The variation in your bill is more than what I use in a typical month! I've got a small aquarium a computer/server that's on 24/7 and electric range. Have AC, but don't use it more than a few hours here and there when it gets real hot.

1235 kWh/mo comes to an average constant draw of 1715W. The only thing I can think of that would generate that kind of load would be pool pumps, hot tubs, or running the AC a LOT - and it's been a mild summer so I can't imagine that you use the AC that much. Maybe just a really big house? Or if you're a geek - 3-5 servers running 24/7 or something? Attic fan? Hot water circulation system? Fountains?
No aquarium...but tons of equipment. Let's put it this way... I count more than 30 actively-registered network-enabled devices on my non-public network. Gas range, Gas Dryer, and again, we use the A/C like it's going out of style. 2 3-ton A/C units (18 Seer, I believe) and a big house. A/C is a big piece but the equipment draw is significant as well. Some day, I'll figure out what the spread is.
drees wrote:BTW - I'd estimate that your PV system generates about 10,000 kWh/year and should be big enough to generate a surplus most of the summer months between April-September unless you have a really big consumption month - am I close?
Very. 11,716 kWh if I look at the previous 12 months.
Last edited by sdbonez on Wed Oct 06, 2010 12:33 am, edited 1 time in total.
EV Prj: prereg 4/19 11:21a, appvd 7/22 11:34a, on-site eval 8/27 1pm, installed 3/30
Leaf: Red eTec resvd 4/20 2:33p, order open 8/31 11:30a, confirmed 9/3 2:00p, Carwings 3/9
Dash@Delivery 4/8, 7-day on 3/23, Delivered 03/30, Carwings: 'Bonez' VIN#728

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sdbonez
Posts: 468
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Delivery Date: 26 Jun 2015
Location: San Diego, Ca (San Marcos)

Re: San Diego Leaf Fanatics!

Wed Oct 06, 2010 12:33 am

ttweed wrote:...according to the EV Project residential agreement
Is this link (http://173.201.179.178/questionnaire/pa ... agreement/) *the* residential agreement? I don't remember seeing it initially and actually put in a request to ECOtality last week for it (they were searching for it and said they'd send a link if they could find it).

While we're on the subject of agreements, has anyone seen production verbiage for the Leaf Warranty?
EV Prj: prereg 4/19 11:21a, appvd 7/22 11:34a, on-site eval 8/27 1pm, installed 3/30
Leaf: Red eTec resvd 4/20 2:33p, order open 8/31 11:30a, confirmed 9/3 2:00p, Carwings 3/9
Dash@Delivery 4/8, 7-day on 3/23, Delivered 03/30, Carwings: 'Bonez' VIN#728

GroundLoop
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Re: San Diego Leaf Fanatics!

Wed Oct 06, 2010 1:01 am

Also, if anyone knows what SDG&E filed with CPUC to replace EV-TOU-3 with an alternate arrangement, I'd like to read that even before it's in effect.

GroundLoop
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Re: San Diego Leaf Fanatics!

Wed Oct 06, 2010 1:14 am

wsbca wrote: From what the SDG&E EV manager told me, the second meter will be between the main meter and the EVSE, and the cumulative second meter usage will be subtracted after the fact from the main meter. They can't/won't use data from the BLINK unit.
Right. The same was confirmed at the Oct 4 lecture by Joel Pointon. I still have questions about the specific wiring and location. The Blink charger will be in the interior of the garage. Where will the second interposing rate meter go? It can't go on the exterior because there is no room for it. It would have to wire between the breaker and the interior wiring, so the EV Project installer would have to allow for that during the charger install.

If the meter is installed inside, how will they read the meter? (Zigbee smart meter?) How much wall space will it take up?

The Blink data is apparently good enough for EV Project's data collection, but not good enough for billing.

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sdbonez
Posts: 468
Joined: Tue Sep 28, 2010 11:44 pm
Delivery Date: 26 Jun 2015
Location: San Diego, Ca (San Marcos)

Re: San Diego Leaf Fanatics!

Wed Oct 06, 2010 3:28 pm

GroundLoop wrote:I still have questions about the specific wiring and location. The Blink charger will be in the interior of the garage. Where will the second interposing rate meter go? It can't go on the exterior because there is no room for it. It would have to wire between the breaker and the interior wiring, so the EV Project installer would have to allow for that during the charger install.
I actually have a copy of the results from my surveyor (their worksheet) as well as the photos and full 'package' that they then sent to Ecotality. It makes *no* mention of a second meter and none of the questions are formatted in a way that would give Ecotality (or SDG&E) this level of info/confidence.

It solely focuses on the existing meter, it's capacity/situation/location, the runs to the location for the EVSE, and details about the location of the EVSE...
EV Prj: prereg 4/19 11:21a, appvd 7/22 11:34a, on-site eval 8/27 1pm, installed 3/30
Leaf: Red eTec resvd 4/20 2:33p, order open 8/31 11:30a, confirmed 9/3 2:00p, Carwings 3/9
Dash@Delivery 4/8, 7-day on 3/23, Delivered 03/30, Carwings: 'Bonez' VIN#728

Frank
Posts: 226
Joined: Thu May 13, 2010 8:35 am
Delivery Date: 26 Jun 2015
Location: San Diego, CA

Re: San Diego Leaf Fanatics!

Wed Oct 06, 2010 5:24 pm

GroundLoop wrote: Right. The same was confirmed at the Oct 4 lecture by Joel Pointon. I still have questions about the specific wiring and location. The Blink charger will be in the interior of the garage. Where will the second interposing rate meter go? It can't go on the exterior because there is no room for it. It would have to wire between the breaker and the interior wiring, so the EV Project installer would have to allow for that during the charger install.

If the meter is installed inside, how will they read the meter? (Zigbee smart meter?) How much wall space will it take up?

The Blink data is apparently good enough for EV Project's data collection, but not good enough for billing.
I think the second meter will be outside so it can be read by SDG&E and will be under my existing meter. My present meter is to the left of the breaker panel. That compartment is as large as the breaker panel compartment, and most of it is unused. I think the second meter could go there, and be connected between the EV circuit breakers and the Blink charger.
* Zapino 60 volt Electric Scooter
* 7.622 kW (AC) PV System, 44 Sharp 208-Watt Solar Modules

Frank
Posts: 226
Joined: Thu May 13, 2010 8:35 am
Delivery Date: 26 Jun 2015
Location: San Diego, CA

Re: San Diego Leaf Fanatics!

Wed Oct 06, 2010 5:30 pm

sdbonez wrote: No aquarium...but tons of equipment. Let's put it this way... I count more than 30 actively-registered network-enabled devices on my non-public network. Gas range, Gas Dryer, and again, we use the A/C like it's going out of style. 2 3-ton A/C units (18 Seer, I believe) and a big house. A/C is a big piece but the equipment draw is significant as well. Some day, I'll figure out what the spread is
I installed a kWh monitoring system several months ago from EcoDog Inc and it monitors usage at the circuit level in kWh and $$ so you can see how much it costs to run AC, a load of laundry, bake a cake, etc. It records the data in hour increments on each circuit. If you want to check it out see www.ecodoginc.com. The system is appropriately called Fido.
* Zapino 60 volt Electric Scooter
* 7.622 kW (AC) PV System, 44 Sharp 208-Watt Solar Modules

GroundLoop
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Joined: Mon Sep 13, 2010 9:31 pm

Re: San Diego Leaf Fanatics!

Wed Oct 06, 2010 5:45 pm

Frank wrote: I think the second meter will be outside so it can be read by SDG&E and will be under my existing meter. My present meter is to the left of the breaker panel. That compartment is as large as the breaker panel compartment, and most of it is unused. I think the second meter could go there, and be connected between the EV circuit breakers and the Blink charger.
There are so many complexities in this, it just doesn't seem likely.

First, most recent residences have a "load center" with a solid bus bar going from the meter to the service panel. They don't have any way to run a second service rail into your existing panel, so a new sub-panel would be needed. On my house anyway.

If they install a second meter, then they also have to install a new breaker for it, in a new panel to house the breaker and feed from the meter. There is nowhere to put this on the exterior. The wall space is limited, and stucco is not easy to work in.

Then, they have to run wire/conduit from that new panel to the charger.
Like sdbonez, none of this is covered in my ECOtality estimate, and they are working the assumption of using an existing breaker in my existing panel.
Who is going to pay for the extensive electrical work? What contractor is going to do it?

The only way I can figure this is if they install the meter on the *interior* and rely on their new SmartMeter/iTron/Zigbee network to read it. I haven't seen any interior power meters, but I suppose it's possible?

There might be some "second meter" facility in my load center that I don't know about, but I'd be surprised. It's pretty clear how all the breakers are bussed together.

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ttweed
Posts: 1090
Joined: Tue Sep 07, 2010 8:31 am
Delivery Date: 01 Apr 2011
Leaf Number: 1317
Location: La Jolla, CA
Contact: Website

Re: San Diego Leaf Fanatics!

Wed Oct 06, 2010 7:06 pm

sdbonez wrote:
ttweed wrote:...according to the EV Project residential agreement
Is this link (http://173.201.179.178/questionnaire/pa ... agreement/) *the* residential agreement?
No, that's the "Standard" agreement. The one for SDG&E customers is here:
http://www.etec.stage.nissanusa.com/par ... esLogixID=

TT
Tom Tweed
La Jolla, CA
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