DanCar
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Re: 135 mile range LEAF? Where did this come from?

Sat Apr 05, 2014 9:16 am

LTLFTcomposite wrote:I have a hard time seeing EV growth sustaining momentum if it becomes apparent they only have a five year life.
In the future it will be easy to replace the battery in an EV. At least easier than replacing an engine in an ICE car. It will also be easier to hot rod electric vehicles in +5 years. I see used electric cars will have a strong enthusiast backing.
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GRA
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Re: 135 mile range LEAF? Where did this come from?

Sat Apr 05, 2014 3:22 pm

jelloslug wrote:
evnow wrote:
LTLFTcomposite wrote:I have a hard time seeing EV growth sustaining momentum if it becomes apparent they only have a five year life.
Look around - most of the "growth" is coming from leased cars.
Which is good.
Not if no one wants all the cars coming off lease, which is almost certainly the current situation. The iMiEV at 62 miles EPA is too short ranged for many people when new; how many people will value a used LEAF that starts with a range of 40 miles or less under ideal conditions?
Last edited by GRA on Sun Apr 06, 2014 3:28 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Guy [I have lots of experience designing/selling off-grid AE systems, some using EVs but don't own one. Local trips are by foot, bike and/or rapid transit].

The 'best' is the enemy of 'good enough'. Copper shot, not Silver bullets.

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evnow
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Re: 135 mile range LEAF? Where did this come from?

Sat Apr 05, 2014 3:37 pm

GRA wrote:Not if no one wants all the cars coming off lease, which is almost certainly the current situation.
I guess you have nothing to back your claim ?

Basically it is a Nissan problem if they can't sell the vehicles coming off lease - they will find a way.
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pkulak
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Re: 135 mile range LEAF? Where did this come from?

Sat Apr 05, 2014 4:24 pm

evnow wrote:
GRA wrote:Not if no one wants all the cars coming off lease, which is almost certainly the current situation.
I guess you have nothing to back your claim ?

Basically it is a Nissan problem if they can't sell the vehicles coming off lease - they will find a way.
Exactly. It's not like they will cease to exist. If their value tanks, it just means that a bunch of people will score 40-mile EVs for 4 digits. If you work and live in the same city, even 40 miles is fine. And if they really tank in value that much, Nissan will probably just pop new batteries in them so they can sell them for 20 grand+.

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JeremyW
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Re: 135 mile range LEAF? Where did this come from?

Sat Apr 05, 2014 10:25 pm

GRA wrote:how many people will value a used LEAF that starts with a range of 40 miles or less under ideal conditions?
Know of any high schooler that has to drive 20 miles each way to school? Moms would be delighted to know their kid couldn't go too far, or at least if they wanted to go the distance, they wouldn't be doing so very fast!
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TonyWilliams
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Re: 135 mile range LEAF? Where did this come from?

Sun Apr 06, 2014 5:12 am

GregH wrote: Anyone know what percentage of EVSEs out in the wild can actually support more than 30-32A? I would think the Tesla or RAV4 folks would track this somewhere.
Of course, there are google maps out there showing all the Tesla 70 amp EVSE's (usually requires Roadster adaptor to J1772), and Sun Country went coast to coast in Canada with 70 amp units.

But, every RV park with "50 amp RV service is a 40 amp continuous capable plug-in spot.

The added bonus is that they are also 240 volts instead of 208 volts.

Berlino
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Re: 135 mile range LEAF? Where did this come from?

Sun Apr 06, 2014 1:16 pm

TonyWilliams wrote:
But, every RV park with "50 amp RV service is a 40 amp continuous capable plug-in spot.
Not based on personal experience, but there are reports of campground NEMA 10-50 outlets often being in poor shape.

If you try to get the full 40A continuous from them overnight, you may wake up to find that the circuit-breaker has cut off the charge. Or, there's no circuit-breaker, but a fuse has blown and it takes forever to get it replaced.
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dhanson865
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Re: 135 mile range LEAF? Where did this come from?

Sun Apr 06, 2014 3:11 pm

Berlino wrote:
TonyWilliams wrote:
But, every RV park with "50 amp RV service is a 40 amp continuous capable plug-in spot.
Not based on personal experience, but there are reports of campground NEMA 10-50 outlets often being in poor shape.

If you try to get the full 40A continuous from them overnight, you may wake up to find that the circuit-breaker has cut off the charge. Or, there's no circuit-breaker, but a fuse has blown and it takes forever to get it replaced.
The Tesla charger is smart enough with the current firmware to reduce the charge speed if a voltage drop is detected. This is usually enough to prevent the breaker trip / fuse blow scenario so you wake up with a charged vehicle even if it isn't at the full rate.

Shouldn't we expect similar firmware/charger code to do the same when the next gen Leaf comes out?

Assuming so you can have a higher KW charger and let the charger/evse combo worry about how safe the circuit is.

7.2KW charger is 33A on that supposedly 40a circuit at the RV Park and shouldn't even need to kick in a lower charge level but could drop down to 27A if a problem is detected and pretend it is a 6.6KW charger.

9.6KW charger is well over the 40a limit but it could start at 40a and drop to a lower charging rate if a problem is detected.

Oh and if you have the option to manually dial down the amps before charging starts you can plug into the 14-50 and decide how safe you want to play it. If you know 25a will charge you before you need to leave you can be ultra conservative. If you know you need to leave asap you can let the firmware start high and hope it will pull back before the breaker/fuse have to do their thing.
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GRA
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Re: 135 mile range LEAF? Where did this come from?

Sun Apr 06, 2014 3:39 pm

JeremyW wrote:
GRA wrote:how many people will value a used LEAF that starts with a range of 40 miles or less under ideal conditions?
Know of any high schooler that has to drive 20 miles each way to school?
Nope. Are you suggesting that even-shorter-ranged used BEVs will be in demand in rural areas, as opposed to the new ones which are almost entirely restricted to urban areas because of their limited radius?
JeremyW wrote: Moms would be delighted to know their kid couldn't go too far, or at least if they wanted to go the distance, they wouldn't be doing so very fast!
Numerous studies have shown that the millenials aren't terribly interested in driving, they're far more interested in having a good Wi-Fi connection, which is causing panic in the auto companies; autonomous cars are the only safe answer to that, barring a sea change in Millenial attitudes that causes them to want to put their smart phones and iPads down and pay attention to driving [here's a fairly recent articel discussing why - http://www.fastcoexist.com/3027876/mill ... re-out-why" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; ]. Also, given that any parents in the household probably work, cars are no longer so valuable to teens as rolling motel rooms either, as there's usually a couple of hour window between when school lets out and parents return home. :lol:
Last edited by GRA on Sun Apr 06, 2014 4:49 pm, edited 2 times in total.
Guy [I have lots of experience designing/selling off-grid AE systems, some using EVs but don't own one. Local trips are by foot, bike and/or rapid transit].

The 'best' is the enemy of 'good enough'. Copper shot, not Silver bullets.

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Re: 135 mile range LEAF? Where did this come from?

Sun Apr 06, 2014 3:45 pm

pkulak wrote:
evnow wrote:
GRA wrote:Not if no one wants all the cars coming off lease, which is almost certainly the current situation.
I guess you have nothing to back your claim ?

Basically it is a Nissan problem if they can't sell the vehicles coming off lease - they will find a way.
Exactly. It's not like they will cease to exist. If their value tanks, it just means that a bunch of people will score 40-mile EVs for 4 digits. If you work and live in the same city, even 40 miles is fine. And if they really tank in value that much, Nissan will probably just pop new batteries in them so they can sell them for 20 grand+.
40 miles under ideal conditions can mean well under 20 in worst case conditions. Maybe I'm wrong, but I just don't see a large market for cars whose utility is even more limited by range than the new ones are, no matter their price. Is there really a significant market for what are essentially NHTSA standards-compatible NEVs? I doubt it. If Nissan could just 'pop new batteries in them' and make a decent return, they could also provide a price for those same new batteries to their current customers that wouldn't give them apoplexy.
Guy [I have lots of experience designing/selling off-grid AE systems, some using EVs but don't own one. Local trips are by foot, bike and/or rapid transit].

The 'best' is the enemy of 'good enough'. Copper shot, not Silver bullets.

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