GRA
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Re: 135 mile range LEAF? Where did this come from?

Mon Apr 07, 2014 5:31 pm

pkulak wrote:
GRA wrote: 40 miles under ideal conditions can mean well under 20 in worst case conditions. Maybe I'm wrong, but I just don't see a large market for cars whose utility is even more limited by range than the new ones are, no matter their price. Is there really a significant market for what are essentially NHTSA standards-compatible NEVs? I doubt it. If Nissan could just 'pop new batteries in them' and make a decent return, they could also provide a price for those same new batteries to their current customers that wouldn't give them apoplexy.
Well, those worst conditions are Minnesota on the freeway in a blizzard. Everywhere I need to be during the week is under 10 miles one way from my house and the lowest we saw last winter was 17 for about an hour one night. And these wouldn't be NEVs. Super low range, maybe, but with around-view monitor and leather? Doesn't seem too shabby to me, if the price is right.
What would be the right price for you, considering that you'll be able to get a brand new 2014 62 mile EPA iMiEV for $15.5k after the fed subsidy, and only $13k in California? At what price do you think it's worth Nissan's time to try and sell these cars, plus assume the continuing liability?
Guy [I have lots of experience designing/selling off-grid AE systems, some using EVs but don't own one. Local trips are by foot, bike and/or rapid transit].

The 'best' is the enemy of 'good enough'. Copper shot, not Silver bullets.

GRA
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Re: 135 mile range LEAF? Where did this come from?

Mon Apr 07, 2014 5:38 pm

evnow wrote:
GRA wrote:40 miles under ideal conditions can mean well under 20 in worst case conditions.
Worst condition would be zero - since you can always find such conditions. But let us not pretend these are frequent scenarios for majority of consumers.
Frequent enough for anyone who lives in New England, around the Great Lakes, in the plains or the Rockies, and as has been apparent this past winter, could occur even in areas that would normally never experience such temps. And then there's continuing degradation due to heat in much of the country, so unless Nissan plans to ship all the off-lease cars to the PNW and areas with similar climates, I see a miniscule market for what is already a tiny niche vehicle. Then there's the whole problem of BEVs being seen as 'throw-away' vehicles, which is hardly the attitude we should be aiming for.
Guy [I have lots of experience designing/selling off-grid AE systems, some using EVs but don't own one. Local trips are by foot, bike and/or rapid transit].

The 'best' is the enemy of 'good enough'. Copper shot, not Silver bullets.

DougWantsALeaf
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Re: 135 mile range LEAF? Where did this come from?

Mon Apr 07, 2014 7:08 pm

Image
(hope the link comes through, it shows 511 GIDS)

not sure why my Leaf Spy malfunctioned, but would love to tell you I already had the 135 mile leaf.
2019 S Plus (98.06% SOH) & 2019 SV Plus (94.77% SOH) Both Silver
2013 Leaf SV sold 2019 with 11 bars
100 Mile Club Member (Number 87)
Max Miles on 13 Leaf: 120 miles
Max Miles on 19 SV+: 242 Highway miles @ 4.5 miles/kWh

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Nubo
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Re: 135 mile range LEAF? Where did this come from?

Mon Apr 07, 2014 9:00 pm

evnow wrote:
Nubo wrote:When people come onto MYN, asking "will LEAF work for me....?" anyone with a regular trip over about 60 miles is generally advised to either look elsewhere, or be VERY careful with their plans and expectations. This is the context in which I made my statement, not the EPA range estimate.
But the context is what some Nissan manager apparently said. He should be talking from EPA range perspective.
I'll define the context of my own post, thanks. He can keep his context. Whether that was EPA(imagined), or Nissan Miles, or Nissan Japan Miles, is a matter of conjecture. ;)
I noticed you're still working with polymers.

jelloslug
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Re: 135 mile range LEAF? Where did this come from?

Tue Apr 08, 2014 6:48 am

GRA wrote:
jelloslug wrote:
GRA wrote: Not if no one wants all the cars coming off lease, which is almost certainly the current situation. The iMiEV at 62 miles EPA is too short ranged for many people when new; how many people will value a used LEAF that starts with a range of 40 miles or less under ideal conditions?
Lots and lots of people will want off lease Leafs. People said the same thing about the Prius when it first came out also. Don't forget that virtually all of the off lease Leafs will still be under the battery warranty.
Hardly the same situations - The Prius retains its original performance, the same as any other ICE at the end of the lease, and the LEAF's is reduced from what, when new, was already viewed as inadequate by the majority of consumers.
You are still missing the fact that the battery will still be under warrantee in just about every single off lease scenario.

pkulak
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Re: 135 mile range LEAF? Where did this come from?

Tue Apr 08, 2014 10:58 am

GRA wrote:
pkulak wrote:
GRA wrote: 40 miles under ideal conditions can mean well under 20 in worst case conditions. Maybe I'm wrong, but I just don't see a large market for cars whose utility is even more limited by range than the new ones are, no matter their price. Is there really a significant market for what are essentially NHTSA standards-compatible NEVs? I doubt it. If Nissan could just 'pop new batteries in them' and make a decent return, they could also provide a price for those same new batteries to their current customers that wouldn't give them apoplexy.
Well, those worst conditions are Minnesota on the freeway in a blizzard. Everywhere I need to be during the week is under 10 miles one way from my house and the lowest we saw last winter was 17 for about an hour one night. And these wouldn't be NEVs. Super low range, maybe, but with around-view monitor and leather? Doesn't seem too shabby to me, if the price is right.
What would be the right price for you, considering that you'll be able to get a brand new 2014 62 mile EPA iMiEV for $15.5k after the fed subsidy, and only $13k in California? At what price do you think it's worth Nissan's time to try and sell these cars, plus assume the continuing liability?
I'd probably take a 40-mile, used Leaf SL over a brand new iMiEV, even at the same price. That iMiEV is a turd. And if the used Leaf was 10 grand? No brainer. Range matters a lot, but it's not everything. I can run errands all day around town and not hit 40 miles. And I'd rather do that in a nice car.

GRA
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Re: 135 mile range LEAF? Where did this come from?

Tue Apr 08, 2014 3:36 pm

jelloslug wrote:
GRA wrote:
jelloslug wrote: Lots and lots of people will want off lease Leafs. People said the same thing about the Prius when it first came out also. Don't forget that virtually all of the off lease Leafs will still be under the battery warranty.
Hardly the same situations - The Prius retains its original performance, the same as any other ICE at the end of the lease, and the LEAF's is reduced from what, when new, was already viewed as inadequate by the majority of consumers.
You are still missing the fact that the battery will still be under warrantee in just about every single off lease scenario.
Uh huh, and the question is will Nissan replace all the batteries under warranty with new ones or used ones? How much will this cost them, and is it worth it, to them or (if swapping in a used battery) the owners?
Last edited by GRA on Tue Apr 08, 2014 3:41 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Guy [I have lots of experience designing/selling off-grid AE systems, some using EVs but don't own one. Local trips are by foot, bike and/or rapid transit].

The 'best' is the enemy of 'good enough'. Copper shot, not Silver bullets.

GRA
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Re: 135 mile range LEAF? Where did this come from?

Tue Apr 08, 2014 3:40 pm

pkulak wrote:
GRA wrote:
pkulak wrote: Well, those worst conditions are Minnesota on the freeway in a blizzard. Everywhere I need to be during the week is under 10 miles one way from my house and the lowest we saw last winter was 17 for about an hour one night. And these wouldn't be NEVs. Super low range, maybe, but with around-view monitor and leather? Doesn't seem too shabby to me, if the price is right.
What would be the right price for you, considering that you'll be able to get a brand new 2014 62 mile EPA iMiEV for $15.5k after the fed subsidy, and only $13k in California? At what price do you think it's worth Nissan's time to try and sell these cars, plus assume the continuing liability?
I'd probably take a 40-mile, used Leaf SL over a brand new iMiEV, even at the same price. That iMiEV is a turd. And if the used Leaf was 10 grand? No brainer. Range matters a lot, but it's not everything. I can run errands all day around town and not hit 40 miles. And I'd rather do that in a nice car.
Okay, that's you, and your specific circumstantces. Now, if you were in Georgia, where instead of $2,500 from the state you got $5,000, so that the iMiEV now costs just $10.5k, would that change your mind? How about in Colorado ($6k? from the state)? And how many other people will see it the same way you do? After all, lack of range is the single most important issue that people have with BEVs.
Guy [I have lots of experience designing/selling off-grid AE systems, some using EVs but don't own one. Local trips are by foot, bike and/or rapid transit].

The 'best' is the enemy of 'good enough'. Copper shot, not Silver bullets.

pkulak
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Re: 135 mile range LEAF? Where did this come from?

Tue Apr 08, 2014 3:55 pm

GRA wrote:After all, lack of range is the single most important issue that people have with BEVs.
No, it's the single most important issue that people have with Leafs, because the Leaf is actually a pretty nice little car. The range stands out against that. Give most people an iMiEV and their first complaint is not going to be the range.

I'm really not some outlier. It seems like everyone on here has a 50-mile commute, but I can assure you, not everyone does. People live in cities too. I work 8 miles away from my house and I don't even use a car for that commute.

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Nubo
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Re: 135 mile range LEAF? Where did this come from?

Tue Apr 08, 2014 4:50 pm

pkulak wrote:
GRA wrote:After all, lack of range is the single most important issue that people have with BEVs.
No, it's the single most important issue that people have with Leafs, because the Leaf is actually a pretty nice little car. The range stands out against that. Give most people an iMiEV and their first complaint is not going to be the range.
Agreed. iMiEV is just a bit on the wrong side of "not enough car", and "too weird". This is one thing Nissan got very right. Different enough to get noticed, but not too weird, nor overt "punishment car", to borrow from Tesla founder...

I'm pretty happy with our LEAF. I'd love to see more range and better commitment to addressing owners' concerns about the battery, and of course a more durable battery. I'd like to have purchase make sense vs. a lease. If purchase doesn't make sense, there's obviously a problem.
I noticed you're still working with polymers.

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