GRA
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Re: 135 mile range LEAF? Where did this come from?

Tue Apr 08, 2014 6:22 pm

pkulak wrote:
GRA wrote:After all, lack of range is the single most important issue that people have with BEVs.
No, it's the single most important issue that people have with Leafs, because the Leaf is actually a pretty nice little car. The range stands out against that. Give most people an iMiEV and their first complaint is not going to be the range.

I'm really not some outlier. It seems like everyone on here has a 50-mile commute, but I can assure you, not everyone does. People live in cities too. I work 8 miles away from my house and I don't even use a car for that commute.
Actually, range is the single most important issue that people have with BEVs that aren't Teslas (or RAV4s, which are half-Tesla). The latter all provide enough range to handle almost everyone's daily commute/errand needs (routine and otherwise). And my commute vehicle is my bicycle.

I agree that the iMiEV's looks certainly bring the word 'Meek' to mind and it's not sophisticated, but it's a minimum cost BEV for people with minimum car needs. As for the rest, I find it more suitably-equipped for my taste than the typical all-electric gadgets-included overload of most BEVs, but I realize I'm in a minority there (I still prefer driving a stick, too). Not that any of the sub-100 mile BEVs meet my minimum range needs from a car.
Guy [I have lots of experience designing/selling off-grid AE systems, some using EVs but don't own one. Local trips are by foot, bike and/or rapid transit].

The 'best' is the enemy of 'good enough'. Copper shot, not Silver bullets.

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JeremyW
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Re: 135 mile range LEAF? Where did this come from?

Tue Apr 08, 2014 7:25 pm

GRA wrote:Actually, range is the single most important issue that people have with BEVs that aren't Teslas (or RAV4s, which are half-Tesla).
While it's an issue, and I certainly want it to be improved, I think for a lot of people it's not a deal-breaker. They just don't know it or see it. While not all Millennials will drive, some will. The technology will improve and at the same time, more people will realize they can drive electric (or partial electric) with current technology. Used leaf prices will probably take a beating, but in the end, they will end up as nice NEV's.

I think once a significant portion of the population really starts to realize their options, addressing apartment charging will be a bigger challenge.
Former 2012 SL leasee 6/23/12 - 9/23/15
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Now driving Spark EV and Model 3.

GRA
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Re: 135 mile range LEAF? Where did this come from?

Wed Apr 09, 2014 5:22 pm

JeremyW wrote:
GRA wrote:Actually, range is the single most important issue that people have with BEVs that aren't Teslas (or RAV4s, which are half-Tesla).
While it's an issue, and I certainly want it to be improved, I think for a lot of people it's not a deal-breaker. They just don't know it or see it.
We'll have to disagree on that point. See Brad Berman's latest article at plugincars.com, on his switch from a LEAF to a RAV4:

http://www.plugincars.com/revisiting-ho ... 29591.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

And then there's his year-old article on a survey of mostly (97%) LEAF owners that's referenced, titled "To Be Satisfied, Electric Car Drivers Want 150 Miles of Range":

http://www.plugincars.com/survey-be-sat ... 27255.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Only 10% say that 100 miles or less is enough - the other 90% want 101 to over 300 miles. These people, like any sub-100 mile BEV owner, know how far they drive on an average day, but they know that having that range isn't enough to give the car adequate utility for the price. And these are the people _most_ committed to BEVs, because they've already got one.
JeremyW wrote: While not all Millennials will drive, some will. The technology will improve and at the same time, more people will realize they can drive electric (or partial electric) with current technology. Used leaf prices will probably take a beating, but in the end, they will end up as nice NEV's.

I think once a significant portion of the population really starts to realize their options, addressing apartment charging will be a bigger challenge.
No argument on your latter point, although I expect that longer on-board range, either BEV or FCEV, will make away from home charging/refueling an acceptable option, and probably easier and cheaper to accomplish than retrofitting all the apartment buildings and parallel parking spaces.
Last edited by GRA on Wed Apr 09, 2014 6:55 pm, edited 3 times in total.
Guy [I have lots of experience designing/selling off-grid AE systems, some using EVs but don't own one. Local trips are by foot, bike and/or rapid transit].

The 'best' is the enemy of 'good enough'. Copper shot, not Silver bullets.

jlsoaz
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Re: 135 mile range LEAF? Where did this come from?

Wed Apr 09, 2014 6:12 pm

GRA wrote:
JeremyW wrote:
GRA wrote:Actually, range is the single most important issue that people have with BEVs that aren't Teslas (or RAV4s, which are half-Tesla).
While it's an issue, and I certainly want it to be improved, I think for a lot of people it's not a deal-breaker. They just don't know it or see it.
We'll have to disagree on that point. See Brad Berman's latest article at plugincars.com, on his switch from a LEAF to a RAV4:

http://www.plugincars.com/revisiting-ho ... 29591.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

And then there's his year-old survey of mostly (97%) LEAF owners he references in that article, titled "To Be Satisfied, Electric Car Drivers Want 150 Miles of Range":

http://www.plugincars.com/survey-be-sat ... 27255.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Only 10% say that 100 miles or less is enough - the other 90% want 101 to over 200 miles. These people, like any sub-100 mile BEV owner, know how far they drive on an average day, but they know that having that range isn't enough to give the car adequate utility for the price. And these are the people _most_ committed to BEVs, because they've already got one.
....
I agree with GRA's points as to what many drivers want. To the extent that some of the automakers used reasoning that "the average commute is x, so we only need to provide x*y range", I think they considerably underestimated the multiplier y, particularly for the American markets. At least, if they did not want to go higher on the multiplier, it would have been good to offer the optionality of a bigger battery (something Tesla did from 40-60-85 .... an approach which seems to have worked out well for them).

I liked reading the Berman links and when my Leaf lease ends, I will likely follow his path and either get a longer-range BEV or, if none is available at a price I can afford, then get into a PHEV, either leasing a new one or perhaps a used Volt or C-Max Energi, or maybe will have moved closer to public transit by then.

Back in the 1998-2003 time period, I seem to recall several of the manufacturers talking about how a lesson-learned was that the batteries supposedly needed more development.

Ok, so, here we are 10-15 years later and the Leaf battery sports *less* energy than the 26 kWh or so NiMH battery that was on some of the EV1s.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/General_Motors_EV1" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

and also apparently less range and kWh than provided by the lithium-ion batteries featured on the Nissan Altra EVs of around 1999-2000.

I do absolutely understand that there are plenty of other things I should pay attention to as to what has changed and improved than went into the Leaf, and I'm grateful to Nissan for stepping up to higher-volume production (which none of the others except maybe Mitsubishi did) with a good BEV, but I can't shake the frustration that a decision was taken, and still not modified (more than 3 years after US introduction) to limit the Leaf to its present range without even offering the option of a bigger battery.

Please Nissan.
Let us have the option of paying you more money for considerably more range.
Please.
Please.
2015 Model S 70 Oct 2020 -
2013 Volt - Oct 2017- Oct 2020
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DougWantsALeaf
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Re: 135 mile range LEAF? Where did this come from?

Wed Apr 09, 2014 7:48 pm

Everyone's range requirements are a little different.

Its important to remember that we are still in round one of the era of a viable somewhat affordable electric car. Each round will get better from here in terms of range and variety. I just look at the number of charging stations appearing in nearly every municipality. Its mind blowing the progress in 2 year.

I do think Tesla had the range nailed, with an all weather 200 miles (300 with care) in terms of meeting the 98% need. At 60-80 miles, our leaf meets 70% of range needs.

The Leaf is a good warm up car for an electric car living though. I find I now even drive my van more efficiently (more gradual acceleration, timing lights) as a result.
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smkettner
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Re: 135 mile range LEAF? Where did this come from?

Wed Apr 09, 2014 8:11 pm

This is why Nissan and others need optional batteries.
80, 140, 210 mile vehicle option would cover about everyone.
IMO Nissan is leaving a lot of money on the table with only the short range LEAF.
1 bar lost at 21,451 miles, 16 months.
2 bar lost at 35,339 miles, 25 months.
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DougWantsALeaf
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Re: 135 mile range LEAF? Where did this come from?

Wed Apr 09, 2014 8:30 pm

I completely agree, and kind of had hoped that we would see an aftermarket battery available by now.

I think Nissan is still scaling as fast as they can to meet Global demand, so has not put too much focus on bigger batteries, rather making the existing one cheaper and lighter.

That said, hopeful for 2015. Hoping my 11 year old will only ever drive an electric(, and my 5 only ever have a self driving car.)
2019 S Plus (98.06% SOH) & 2019 SV Plus (94.77% SOH) Both Silver
2013 Leaf SV sold 2019 with 11 bars
100 Mile Club Member (Number 87)
Max Miles on 13 Leaf: 120 miles
Max Miles on 19 SV+: 242 Highway miles @ 4.5 miles/kWh

BrockWI
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Re: 135 mile range LEAF? Where did this come from?

Thu Apr 10, 2014 5:57 am

DougWantsALeaf wrote: Hoping my 11 year old will only ever drive an electric(, and my 5 only ever have a self driving car.)
Funny you should mention that, our 11 year old asked if he would be taking his drivers licence test in the leaf. I said I hope so :)
2013 S W/QC Mar of 2013
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jelloslug
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Re: 135 mile range LEAF? Where did this come from?

Thu Apr 10, 2014 6:22 am

GRA wrote: Uh huh, and the question is will Nissan replace all the batteries under warranty with new ones or used ones? How much will this cost them, and is it worth it, to them or (if swapping in a used battery) the owners?
A warrantee is a warrantee and Nissan does not get to pick and choose who gets to use it. How Nissan fulfills the warrantee is up to the wording of the warrantee itself.

DougWantsALeaf
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Re: 135 mile range LEAF? Where did this come from?

Thu Apr 10, 2014 2:58 pm

How has the lead worked in GB. Wish I had gotten the charging package so I could take my leaf for a Packer game. To do a 3 hour level 2 charge north of Milwaukee from Skokie feels to troublesome.
2019 S Plus (98.06% SOH) & 2019 SV Plus (94.77% SOH) Both Silver
2013 Leaf SV sold 2019 with 11 bars
100 Mile Club Member (Number 87)
Max Miles on 13 Leaf: 120 miles
Max Miles on 19 SV+: 242 Highway miles @ 4.5 miles/kWh

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