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Re: 135 mile range LEAF? Where did this come from?

Posted: Thu Apr 10, 2014 3:08 pm
by BrockWI
We have only had it two weeks but so far so good :) I know you can make it pretty easily from Chicago, hitting Milwaukee and then Sheboygan and then up here. There is a free level 2 charger maybe a mile from Lambeau :) I heard talk of them putting one in at Lambeau field

Re: 135 mile range LEAF? Where did this come from?

Posted: Thu Apr 10, 2014 4:02 pm
by GRA
jelloslug wrote:
GRA wrote: Uh huh, and the question is will Nissan replace all the batteries under warranty with new ones or used ones? How much will this cost them, and is it worth it, to them or (if swapping in a used battery) the owners?
A warrantee is a warrantee and Nissan does not get to pick and choose who gets to use it. How Nissan fulfills the warrantee is up to the wording of the warrantee itself.
Yes, and as has been discussed in numerous threads, the current 9-bar warranty is perceived by the vast majority of owners as being unacceptable, and even that had to be dragged from Nissan via a class-action lawsuit and lots of negative publicity. To date they've been putting new batteries in cars because there weren't that many LEAFs coming off-lease with used batteries, but that's now going to change. If they start replacing one used battery with another one, they will be howled at from one end of the country to the other. OTOH, a new battery is still apparently too expensive to even give a price for, so how can Nissan afford to provide them at a profit for the thousands of LEAFs that will be coming off lease in the next year or two, especially when they want to sell/lease people new LEAFs? Do they eat the loss to maintain good customer relations (something they should have decided to do two years ago, but have resisted vigorously), or do they just sell however many of these cars with their original batteries as they can to mostly unsuspecting schmucks, and crush the rest?

Re: 135 mile range LEAF? Where did this come from?

Posted: Thu Apr 10, 2014 4:10 pm
by jelloslug
jlsoaz wrote: I agree with GRA's points as to what many drivers want. To the extent that some of the automakers used reasoning that "the average commute is x, so we only need to provide x*y range", I think they considerably underestimated the multiplier y, particularly for the American markets. At least, if they did not want to go higher on the multiplier, it would have been good to offer the optionality of a bigger battery (something Tesla did from 40-60-85 .... an approach which seems to have worked out well for them).

I liked reading the Berman links and when my Leaf lease ends, I will likely follow his path and either get a longer-range BEV or, if none is available at a price I can afford, then get into a PHEV, either leasing a new one or perhaps a used Volt or C-Max Energi, or maybe will have moved closer to public transit by then.

Back in the 1998-2003 time period, I seem to recall several of the manufacturers talking about how a lesson-learned was that the batteries supposedly needed more development.

Ok, so, here we are 10-15 years later and the Leaf battery sports *less* energy than the 26 kWh or so NiMH battery that was on some of the EV1s.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/General_Motors_EV1" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

and also apparently less range and kWh than provided by the lithium-ion batteries featured on the Nissan Altra EVs of around 1999-2000.

I do absolutely understand that there are plenty of other things I should pay attention to as to what has changed and improved than went into the Leaf, and I'm grateful to Nissan for stepping up to higher-volume production (which none of the others except maybe Mitsubishi did) with a good BEV, but I can't shake the frustration that a decision was taken, and still not modified (more than 3 years after US introduction) to limit the Leaf to its present range without even offering the option of a bigger battery.

Please Nissan.
Let us have the option of paying you more money for considerably more range.
Please.
Please.
One thing that you are missing is this: The price. The EV1 had a lease price based off of a $34k sticker price (in 1996) but since they never actually sold one who knows what it would have actually sold for. The Nissan Altra had a sticker price of $51000 (in 1999) and there were only a handful of them made.

Re: 135 mile range LEAF? Where did this come from?

Posted: Thu Apr 10, 2014 4:12 pm
by jelloslug
GRA wrote: Yes, and as has been discussed in numerous threads, the current 9-bar warranty is perceived by the vast majority of owners as being unacceptable, and even that had to be dragged from Nissan via a class-action lawsuit and lots of negative publicity. To date they've been putting new batteries in cars because their weren't that many LEAFs coming off-lease with used batteries, but that's now going to change. If they start replacing one used battery with another one, they will be howled at from one end of the country to the other. OTOH, a new battery is still apparently too expensive to even give a price for, so how can Nissan afford to provide them at a profit for the thousands of LEAFs that will be coming off lease in the next year or two, especially when they want to sell/lease people new LEAFs? Do they eat the loss to maintain good customer relations (something they should have decided to do two years ago, but have resisted vigorously), or do they just sell however many of these cars with their original batteries as they can to mostly unsuspecting schmucks, and crush the rest?
Why is that going to change? Where has that been stated?

Re: 135 mile range LEAF? Where did this come from?

Posted: Thu Apr 10, 2014 4:23 pm
by GRA
jelloslug wrote:
GRA wrote: Yes, and as has been discussed in numerous threads, the current 9-bar warranty is perceived by the vast majority of owners as being unacceptable, and even that had to be dragged from Nissan via a class-action lawsuit and lots of negative publicity. To date they've been putting new batteries in cars because there weren't that many LEAFs coming off-lease with used batteries, but that's now going to change. If they start replacing one used battery with another one, they will be howled at from one end of the country to the other. OTOH, a new battery is still apparently too expensive to even give a price for, so how can Nissan afford to provide them at a profit for the thousands of LEAFs that will be coming off lease in the next year or two, especially when they want to sell/lease people new LEAFs? Do they eat the loss to maintain good customer relations (something they should have decided to do two years ago, but have resisted vigorously), or do they just sell however many of these cars with their original batteries as they can to mostly unsuspecting schmucks, and crush the rest?
Why is that going to change? Where has that been stated?
Simple, the LEAF went on sale in December 2010, but was seriously supply-constrained for some time. It became widely available about mid-2011. So the oldest LEAFs are less than 3.5 years old now, and many of those earliest cars were purchased rather than leased by enthusiasts who were worried that Nissan might pull an EV1 on them. It took about a year before significant degradation started showing up and being noticed, and since that time most LEAFs have been leased. We will see an increasing number of cars coming off-lease from here on out, and especially once the first Atlanta LEAFs start coming off lease in a year or two there will be a deluge of cars with degraded batteries out there. But the first tranche of SoCal/Arizona cars are beginning to show up now.

Re: 135 mile range LEAF? Where did this come from?

Posted: Thu Apr 10, 2014 6:20 pm
by jelloslug
GRA wrote:
jelloslug wrote:
GRA wrote: Yes, and as has been discussed in numerous threads, the current 9-bar warranty is perceived by the vast majority of owners as being unacceptable, and even that had to be dragged from Nissan via a class-action lawsuit and lots of negative publicity. To date they've been putting new batteries in cars because there weren't that many LEAFs coming off-lease with used batteries, but that's now going to change. If they start replacing one used battery with another one, they will be howled at from one end of the country to the other. OTOH, a new battery is still apparently too expensive to even give a price for, so how can Nissan afford to provide them at a profit for the thousands of LEAFs that will be coming off lease in the next year or two, especially when they want to sell/lease people new LEAFs? Do they eat the loss to maintain good customer relations (something they should have decided to do two years ago, but have resisted vigorously), or do they just sell however many of these cars with their original batteries as they can to mostly unsuspecting schmucks, and crush the rest?
Why is that going to change? Where has that been stated?
Simple, the LEAF went on sale in December 2010, but was seriously supply-constrained for some time. It became widely available about mid-2011. So the oldest LEAFs are less than 3.5 years old now, and many of those earliest cars were purchased rather than leased by enthusiasts who were worried that Nissan might pull an EV1 on them. It took about a year before significant degradation started showing up and being noticed, and since that time most LEAFs have been leased. We will see an increasing number of cars coming off-lease from here on out, and especially once the first Atlanta LEAFs start coming off lease in a year or two there will be a deluge of cars with degraded batteries out there. But the first tranche of SoCal/Arizona cars are beginning to show up now.
No, where are you getting your info that Nissan is going stop honoring their battery warranty?

Re: 135 mile range LEAF? Where did this come from?

Posted: Thu Apr 10, 2014 8:15 pm
by Stoaty
jelloslug wrote:No, where are you getting your info that Nissan is going stop honoring their battery warranty?
No one ever said Nissan was going to stop honoring their battery warranty, only that the warranty does not promise a new battery, but a battery that brings the Leaf back to 9 bars during the warranty period. So, for example, if you hit 8 bars with 57 months of ownership, Nissan could put in a used battery with 9 bars that would last the additional 3 months of the warranty period. Most owners wouldn't consider that much of a "warranty" compared to putting in a new battery if the Leaf hit 8 capacity bars remaining.

Re: 135 mile range LEAF? Where did this come from?

Posted: Thu Apr 10, 2014 11:47 pm
by DaveEV
Stoaty wrote:Most owners wouldn't consider that much of a "warranty" compared to putting in a new battery if the Leaf hit 8 capacity bars remaining.
I also don't consider it much of a "warranty" if the battery loses the 4th bar just outside of warranty, too, as so many southern California LEAFs appear to be on track to do.

Re: 135 mile range LEAF? Where did this come from?

Posted: Fri Apr 11, 2014 1:46 am
by jlsoaz
GRA wrote:"...OTOH, a new battery is still apparently too expensive to even give a price for, ...."
Maybe, but my impression is that regardless of the price of the battery, they have been resisting any notion of allowing people to buy batteries and put them in vehicles. They said around the time of the town hall I believe that they hadn't really intended to replace batteries and hadn't planned for it. Did they ever issue battery pricing.... i.e. did they ever make batteries available for purchase to put in cars? My impression was that they issued the (not very inspiring) battery warranty in part to put off talk of battery pricing/availability issuance.

Re: 135 mile range LEAF? Where did this come from?

Posted: Fri Apr 11, 2014 5:01 am
by LTLFTcomposite
We can never say for sure what Nissan *won't* do at some point in the future. If you have a bunch of six year old Leafs out there with range so badly impaired that all you can do is back out of the driveway and pull back in it's hard to see them not doing something. Once those cars get to the 10 year mark I wouldn't expect them to care any more.