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LTLFTcomposite
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Re: 135 mile range LEAF? Where did this come from?

Thu Mar 27, 2014 11:51 am

^ Funny you should mention trips to the airport, I'm in the same boat. Yeah, like I'm going to go rent a car for that. While the "60 miles is plenty" guys discount the requirement, the market has spoken loud and clear.
LTL
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Weatherman
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Re: 135 mile range LEAF? Where did this come from?

Thu Mar 27, 2014 12:02 pm

I'm rapidly approaching a time when I would not be willing to take my LEAF on a trip to the airport, and it's only a 45-mile round trip, for me. One more summer of battery degradation should do it.

No matter what the new-car range is, a 20%+ loss in capacity in a year and a half makes it a no-deal for me. Nissan needs to fix the degradation problem, first, then consider offering more battery capacity.
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dhanson865
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Re: 135 mile range LEAF? Where did this come from?

Thu Mar 27, 2014 12:16 pm

gatedad11 wrote:I'd seriously "consider" it, if I could get the car's upgrades for a great price. Meaning, the "heat pump" heater, 6.6 on board charger, QC option, and such.
Tesla has a 9.6 charger standard and dual chargers as an option (they call it 10KW and 20KW charger options).

If they double the battery size on the Leaf I don't think 6.6 is a fast enough charge to make it "lead... in EVs".
Andy Palmer wrote: "We will not relinquish our lead in electric vehicles. Despite the naysayers, this is the era of electrification and electronics. It is inevitable, and Nissan is at its forefront. This is what powers Nissan. It is our momentum now, and it is our momentum for the future, and I pledge that Nissan will maintain its leadership in EVs."
Looking at that quote I'd be thinking the charger has to be at least 10KW for a 48KW battery. To keep at the charge rate you have now on the Leaf with 6.6 for a 24KW you have to have a 13KW charger for 48KW. I'm sure availability of parts / design cost will affect the maximum charger they can spec but they have to at least get into double digits (>10KW) to have any semblance of leading the way.
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jsongster
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Re: 135 mile range LEAF? Where did this come from?

Thu Mar 27, 2014 12:26 pm

Cramer's folks could have had a strategic leak from folks in the know... this would not be unheard of.

I hope it is right... Upgrade the charger... maybe the battery would be roughly the same size but better chem. I dunno... Love my LEAF...
Wanted an EV forever. Now driving a 2013 LEAF SL. The car keeps living up to the promise, and CHAdeMO chargers keep extending my range!
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dhanson865
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Re: 135 mile range LEAF? Where did this come from?

Thu Mar 27, 2014 12:38 pm

Weatherman wrote: One more summer of battery degradation should do it.

No matter what the new-car range is, a 20%+ loss in capacity in a year and a half makes it a no-deal for me. Nissan needs to fix the degradation problem, first, then consider offering more battery capacity.
Don't you think the two are intertwined?

As an engineer having too small a battery means no margins for error, no spare capacity, no flexibility, extreme charge cycles.

Increase the battery capacity and you can increase the "hidden" or "locked" portion of the battery at both low state of charge and high state of charge and just doing that will fix a large amount of degradation issues.

If your 20% loss out of 24KW became 5% loss out of 48KW would you consider that fixed? I don't know the exact comparison but I expect the ratio is non linear on the actual capacity and the higher the capacity the more room you have to hide some from the user.

Take hard drives for example. When a drive is manufactured with millions of blocks they pick a fixed number less than that and report it to the PC. As blocks fail the drive remaps data and reports no change in capacity to the PC. Only a catastrophic failure will change the reported capacity. That isn't because they fixed a degradation issue, its because the capacity is so enormous that they have plenty of spare to hide from the user.

Why shouldn't a battery pack work the same way? Have a factory capacity (design minus buffer), an OEM capacity (Tesla or Nissan's number but also available over ODBII including some additional buffer), an end user capacity (as shown on the dash or MFD).

I suppose that is what GIDs/amp hours are about since every battery pack is slightly different but the point is if every battery has more capacity than what is shown to the user why should you care assuming you have enough usable range/capacity to make your trips?
Blue 2012 Leaf 195/65/15 tires, 15" Rims
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klapauzius
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Re: 135 mile range LEAF? Where did this come from?

Thu Mar 27, 2014 1:21 pm

dhanson865 wrote:
Weatherman wrote: One more summer of battery degradation should do it.

No matter what the new-car range is, a 20%+ loss in capacity in a year and a half makes it a no-deal for me. Nissan needs to fix the degradation problem, first, then consider offering more battery capacity.
Don't you think the two are intertwined?
Bigger battery, same chemistry, will degrade as fast in the heat as a smaller one? I thought it was established, that heat beats cycle losses by wide margin?

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mwalsh
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Re: 135 mile range LEAF? Where did this come from?

Thu Mar 27, 2014 1:24 pm

klapauzius wrote:Bigger battery, same chemistry, will degrade as fast in the heat as a smaller one? I thought it was established, that heat beats cycle losses by wide margin?
That would be something of a turn-off for me. Though, on the flip side, it would take a heck of a lot longer to negatively impact me, based on continuing with the same commute I have now.
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Weatherman
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Re: 135 mile range LEAF? Where did this come from?

Thu Mar 27, 2014 1:34 pm

dhanson865 wrote:I suppose that is what GIDs/amp hours are about since every battery pack is slightly different but the point is if every battery has more capacity than what is shown to the user why should you care assuming you have enough usable range/capacity to make your trips?
What I don't like is having one of the most expensive, single components of the car reach end-of-life in about three years (give or take a few months). I don't like throw-away stuff, especially very expensive throw-away stuff.
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Berlino
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Re: 135 mile range LEAF? Where did this come from?

Thu Mar 27, 2014 2:31 pm

dhanson865 wrote:
Looking at that quote I'd be thinking the charger has to be at least 10KW for a 48KW battery.
Many areas have few public L2 charging stations capable of pumping out > 7.2kW. Sure, you can install whatever you want at home, but you don't need 17kW to recharge overnight.

I think there's a diminishing return for on-board L2 chargers > 7.2kW.
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LTLFTcomposite
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Re: 135 mile range LEAF? Where did this come from?

Thu Mar 27, 2014 2:52 pm

IMO the 6kw charger would be plenty; we could even get by with the 3.3kw. For most people this isn't about driving 135 miles every day.

The chademo sure would start to look a lot more interesting at that capacity level though. With a few more stations built out regional road trips could become reasonably practical instead of some sort of exercise in inconveniencing yourself.
LTL
White 2012 SV delivered 10 Dec 2011 returned 25 Nov 2014 replaced with stopgap ICE Sentra
[35 months] [35K miles] [9 Bars]
2013 Volt replaced after 36 months/30k miles with ICE Rogue
2016 SV-adjacent May 2016 lost 4th bar March 2018

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