dhanson865
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Re: 135 mile range LEAF? Where did this come from?

Thu Mar 27, 2014 3:14 pm

klapauzius wrote:
dhanson865 wrote:
Weatherman wrote: One more summer of battery degradation should do it.

No matter what the new-car range is, a 20%+ loss in capacity in a year and a half makes it a no-deal for me. Nissan needs to fix the degradation problem, first, then consider offering more battery capacity.
Don't you think the two are intertwined?
Bigger battery, same chemistry, will degrade as fast in the heat as a smaller one? I thought it was established, that heat beats cycle losses by wide margin?
That is established for those in severe heat no babying of the battery will save them. Heat is the number 1 enemy.

It is also established that if you keep the battery perfectly at the same temperature at all times that depth of charge (time spent below and above certain state of charges) age the battery unrelated to heat.

so

1. Keep the battery as cool as possible (oops no active cooling on the Leaf you really can't control this and still drive the car*)
2. Avoid leaving the car fully charged (how high is too high is a valid question but the more time at or above level x equals y degradation)
3. Avoid fully depleting the battery (how low is too low is a valid question but the more time at or below level x equals y degradation)

*But the "I thought it was established" was based on the old battery chemistry with the old capacity and the old charging rates. Change each of these by any significant amount and you might find that the amount of degradation by heat and state of charge are both reduced.

Heat is the enemy but heat isn't just the temperature outside your car. Your battery gets hotter as it is charged. Your battery gets hotter as you drive (discharging the battery).

If you change the size of the battery pack you won't change the temperature outside the car but you will change the amount of heat** generated by charging at a certain rate and driving at a certain speed. If that extra heat is the straw that breaks the camels back having a larger pack might decrease degradation by a significant amount, if the battery chemistry is a poor fit for the ambient temps then the bigger battery just ages fast no matter how big or small the pack.

** technically the amount of heat is lowered by some amount and the rest is spread around a larger pack, giving a lower temperature with a similar amount of added heat.

Is a multivariate equation you can't take a rule of thumb from the 2011 leaf with chemistry A 24KW pack or a 2013 leaf with chemistry B/C 24KW pack and say that it applies the same to a Leaf of the future with chemistry D 48KW pack.

Heat will still be the number 1 enemy but we don't know how much of the country will be in the advanced degradation zone for a battery pack that doesn't exist yet. I'm just saying we should at least entertain the possibility that for a some portion of the country a larger battery pack could make degradation due to heat a non issue.
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Nubo
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Re: 135 mile range LEAF? Where did this come from?

Thu Mar 27, 2014 3:44 pm

LTLFTcomposite wrote:http://www.thestreet.com/story/12554189 ... -leaf.html

Is this substantiated in any way? $4k price increase seems like a detail not just pulled from thin air.
This story is a perfect example of someone "typing themself smart" as expounded by EVTV's Jack Rickard. Take half a dozen meaningless comments from executives of car companies that aren't producing anything even near the price/performance of LEAF, much less mythical 200 mile cars in that price range. Assume they're all true, and then type "what only makes sense" thereby.

Yes, all that vaporware is really giving Nissan and their REAL EV a run for their money. :roll:
I noticed you're still working with polymers.

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Re: 135 mile range LEAF? Where did this come from?

Thu Mar 27, 2014 3:59 pm

LTLFTcomposite wrote:IMO the 6kw charger would be plenty; we could even get by with the 3.3kw. For most people this isn't about driving 135 miles every day.

The chademo sure would start to look a lot more interesting at that capacity level though. With a few more stations built out regional road trips could become reasonably practical instead of some sort of exercise in inconveniencing yourself.
Hah! Well put, sir!
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GregH
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Re: 135 mile range LEAF? Where did this come from?

Thu Mar 27, 2014 4:05 pm

Berlino wrote:
dhanson865 wrote:
Looking at that quote I'd be thinking the charger has to be at least 10KW for a 48KW battery.
Many areas have few public L2 charging stations capable of pumping out > 7.2kW. Sure, you can install whatever you want at home, but you don't need 17kW to recharge overnight.

I think there's a diminishing return for on-board L2 chargers > 7.2kW.
Unfortunately I'd have to agree. Anyone know what percentage of EVSEs out in the wild can actually support more than 30-32A? I would think the Tesla or RAV4 folks would track this somewhere.
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DaveinOlyWA
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Re: 135 mile range LEAF? Where did this come from?

Thu Mar 27, 2014 6:38 pm

so what would people prefer?

a 50% increase in range for $3,000 or a 25% increase for nothing?

i take the latter as would the majority. most people are happy with the LEAFs range, degradation included.

yes, I know a handful (including me) who needs more range. right now, i am good. with careful driving and decent weather, i can approach 90 miles. more than good enough. but that will only last till the end of this coming Summer most likely. then it will be enough, then next year it will be a small compromise and the next year, yada yada.

so what i need is something that gets me to just enough in 5 years. so hence the 25 % increase.

what i do know is that most people I run into would rather see a cheaper LEAF. the S is essentially a masterstroke in marketing. it gathers a higher percentage of model sales than any other car.

look at a Focus. it comes in 4 trims. the next to highest trim is the most popular along with the mid trim accounting for 80 % of sales. the base model accounts for less than 25 % of the top trim line.

so the S trim popularity should tell Nissan something and it probably aint saying "lets jack up the price for more range"
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Stoaty
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Re: 135 mile range LEAF? Where did this come from?

Thu Mar 27, 2014 7:36 pm

DaveinOlyWA wrote:most people are happy with the LEAFs range, degradation included.
Perhaps those that live in the Pacific Northeast are happy with range, degradation included, but those of us in the rest of the country... not so much. That is actually the only significant thing that makes me unhappy about the Leaf.
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Re: 135 mile range LEAF? Where did this come from?

Thu Mar 27, 2014 8:05 pm

DaveinOlyWA wrote:a 50% increase in range for $3,000 or a 25% increase for nothing?
Why not have it optional? BTW I would take the 100% increase for $5,000.

Range is the issue. Look at all the evse power adapters, need charging at work, cold weather issues, GOM complaints, lack of infrastructure complaints. Increased range solves these issues. I would guess more than half the discussion on the board is about range.
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Elephanthead
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Re: 135 mile range LEAF? Where did this come from?

Fri Mar 28, 2014 8:53 am

If range is an issue you should buy a prius. All the ugly, more range.

epirali
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Re: 135 mile range LEAF? Where did this come from?

Fri Mar 28, 2014 9:34 am

smkettner wrote:
DaveinOlyWA wrote:a 50% increase in range for $3,000 or a 25% increase for nothing?
Why not have it optional? BTW I would take the 100% increase for $5,000.

Range is the issue. Look at all the evse power adapters, need charging at work, cold weather issues, GOM complaints, lack of infrastructure complaints. Increased range solves these issues. I would guess more than half the discussion on the board is about range.
I am curious if there was little to no battery degradation and the range was doubled you would not pay $10K more? I say that because if the purchase price for a Leaf was around $40K, and you had roughly $10k in rebates you would be getting an electric car with 200 mile range for $30K, and in my opinion the Leaf is a pretty nice car in ride, capacity, handling, features for that price point.

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Re: 135 mile range LEAF? Where did this come from?

Fri Mar 28, 2014 10:19 am

Might be interesting to put up a survey to see what people would be willing to pay for 25% more range, 50% more range or 100% more range. Whereas the cost is more or less linear I doubt the amount people are willing to pay is...
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