smkettner
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Delivery Date: 26 Feb 2014
Location: Orange County, CA

Re: 135 mile range LEAF? Where did this come from?

Fri Mar 28, 2014 10:24 am

Cash price might be more intimidating vs the monthly lease.
Also consider the resale value of a 40 mile vs 90 mile LEAF at the 5 year mark.
Or the ability to drive 8 to 12 years vs 5.
1 bar lost at 21,451 miles, 16 months.
2 bar lost at 35,339 miles, 25 months.
LEAF traded at 45,400 miles for a RAV4-EV
RAV4 traded in for I-Pace Dec 2018

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LTLFTcomposite
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Joined: Fri Apr 23, 2010 6:06 pm
Delivery Date: 10 Dec 2011
Leaf Number: 5926
Location: Central FL

Re: 135 mile range LEAF? Where did this come from?

Fri Mar 28, 2014 11:38 am

Perhaps just so much fluff, but another reference to Nissan "speeding up"

http://seekingalpha.com/article/2114933 ... -for-tesla" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
LTL
White 2012 SV delivered 10 Dec 2011 returned 25 Nov 2014 replaced with stopgap ICE Sentra
[35 months] [35K miles] [9 Bars]
2013 Volt replaced after 36 months/30k miles with ICE Rogue
2016 SV-adjacent May 2016 lost 4th bar March 2018

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RegGuheert
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Leaf Number: 5926
Location: Northern VA

Re: 135 mile range LEAF? Where did this come from?

Fri Mar 28, 2014 12:55 pm

smkettner wrote:Also consider the resale value of a 40 mile vs 90 mile LEAF at the 5 year mark.
Or the ability to drive 8 to 12 years vs 5.
+1 Also, smaller depth-of-discharge with each trip.

More range is simply better.

The only drawbacks are cost and weight. In my mind the additional range would win out over both.
RegGuheert
2011 Leaf SL Demo vehicle
10K mi. on 041413; 20K mi. (55.7Ah) on 080714; 30K mi. (52.0Ah) on 123015; 40K mi. (49.8Ah) on 020817; 50K mi. (47.2Ah) on 120717; 60K mi. (43.66Ah) on 091918.
Enphase Inverter Measured MTBF: M190, M215, M250, S280

fotajoye
Posts: 290
Joined: Tue Aug 17, 2010 12:18 pm
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Leaf Number: 669
Location: Northern California

Re: 2012 / 2013 LEAF Range Test San Diego Mar 8, 2013

Fri Mar 28, 2014 1:24 pm

Pure speculation; but, hope:

http://www.thestreet.com/story/12554189 ... -leaf.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

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LTLFTcomposite
Posts: 4780
Joined: Fri Apr 23, 2010 6:06 pm
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Leaf Number: 5926
Location: Central FL

Re: 2012 / 2013 LEAF Range Test San Diego Mar 8, 2013

Fri Mar 28, 2014 2:48 pm

fotajoye wrote:Pure speculation; but, hope:

http://www.thestreet.com/story/12554189 ... -leaf.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
That's the same story that started the thread. But yeah, hope springs eternal.
LTL
White 2012 SV delivered 10 Dec 2011 returned 25 Nov 2014 replaced with stopgap ICE Sentra
[35 months] [35K miles] [9 Bars]
2013 Volt replaced after 36 months/30k miles with ICE Rogue
2016 SV-adjacent May 2016 lost 4th bar March 2018

ILETRIC
Posts: 740
Joined: Sun Dec 19, 2010 9:36 pm
Delivery Date: 04 Jun 2011
Location: Marin County

Re: 135 mile range LEAF? Where did this come from?

Fri Mar 28, 2014 4:04 pm

Definitely GM 200/Tesla E effect. Let's see that new chemistry to pull it off, Nissan!
And the 2011 Leaf swap price, eh?
------------------------------------------------
1st bar lost at 38,700 miles/22 months
2nd bar lost at 45,750 miles/27 months

Traded-in on 10-19-2014 at 56,150 miles
-------------> for Kia Soul EV+ <-------------

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surfingslovak
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Re: 135 mile range LEAF? Where did this come from?

Fri Mar 28, 2014 5:40 pm

mwalsh wrote:
klapauzius wrote:Bigger battery, same chemistry, will degrade as fast in the heat as a smaller one? I thought it was established, that heat beats cycle losses by wide margin?
That would be something of a turn-off for me. Though, on the flip side, it would take a heck of a lot longer to negatively impact me, based on continuing with the same commute I have now.
Please don't assume that no changes, other than more capacity, will be made if and when Nissan decides to phase in a new battery pack. Nissan has been very conservative on the battery front, and according to Andy Palmer, did not plan to make many mid-cycle revisions. LG Chem has used a ceramic-coated separator, which forms the essence of the heat-resistant battery design, with great success in the Volt for several years now. They have also increased the capacity of the battery pack in the 2013 model year by 3%. While Nissan has not implemented any such changes since the market introduction of the LEAF in 2010, they have reportedly been tinkering with a much more substantial change. These reports go as far back as 2009. The question is not if, but when it will happen, and how exactly will a new battery be productized and priced.
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ILETRIC
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Joined: Sun Dec 19, 2010 9:36 pm
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Location: Marin County

Re: 135 mile range LEAF? Where did this come from?

Fri Mar 28, 2014 7:14 pm

Results of March ePOLL


Would you buy a Tesla electric car if it is priced less than $35,000US?

Results To Date
Yes: 4696
No: 68
Don't Know 80
Total: 4844
------------------------------------------------
1st bar lost at 38,700 miles/22 months
2nd bar lost at 45,750 miles/27 months

Traded-in on 10-19-2014 at 56,150 miles
-------------> for Kia Soul EV+ <-------------

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DaveEV
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Re: 135 mile range LEAF? Where did this come from?

Fri Mar 28, 2014 11:17 pm

surfingslovak wrote:LG Chem has used a ceramic-coated separator, which forms the essence of the heat-resistant battery design, with great success in the Volt for several years now.
The ceramic coated separator serves mainly to keep the anode/cathode separated and improves the durability of the battery in extremely high temperatures by keeping the separator from breaking down leading to catastrophic failure. This does not seem to be an issue that the LEAFs cells have.

There are two primary modes of capacity loss in lithium batteries and that is the growth of the SEI layer on the negative electrode along with oxidation of the electrolyte.

As the SEI layer grows, this increases the internal resistance of the cell - this effect tends to be greatest when the cell is new and tapers off as the cell ages and the SEI layer thickens.

On the negative electrode charging the battery causes the electrolyte to oxidize - this effect tends to be linear (does not slow down as the pack ages) and is oxidation happens faster at high cell voltages and high temperatures.

In the LEAF, electrolyte oxidation is probably the major component of capacity loss given the high correlation to temperature and the fact that capacity loss does not appear to slow down at all over time.

All covered in the video referenced here:
Why do lithium batteries die and how to improve them?

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surfingslovak
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Re: 135 mile range LEAF? Where did this come from?

Sat Mar 29, 2014 9:43 am

drees wrote:
surfingslovak wrote:LG Chem has used a ceramic-coated separator, which forms the essence of the heat-resistant battery design, with great success in the Volt for several years now.
The ceramic coated separator serves mainly to keep the anode/cathode separated and improves the durability of the battery in extremely high temperatures by keeping the separator from breaking down leading to catastrophic failure. This does not seem to be an issue that the LEAFs cells have.

There are two primary modes of capacity loss in lithium batteries and that is the growth of the SEI layer on the negative electrode along with oxidation of the electrolyte.

As the SEI layer grows, this increases the internal resistance of the cell - this effect tends to be greatest when the cell is new and tapers off as the cell ages and the SEI layer thickens.

On the negative electrode charging the battery causes the electrolyte to oxidize - this effect tends to be linear (does not slow down as the pack ages) and is oxidation happens faster at high cell voltages and high temperatures.

In the LEAF, electrolyte oxidation is probably the major component of capacity loss given the high correlation to temperature and the fact that capacity loss does not appear to slow down at all over time.

All covered in the video referenced here:
Why do lithium batteries die and how to improve them?
Yes, thank you, Dave. I think we might be forgetting another aspect of ceramic-coated separators. It's their excellent wettability, which permits the use a high content of PC and EC in liquid electrolytes. That's very helpful when trying to increase the cycleability of lithium-ion batteries at high temperatures. The extreme thermal stability this separator offers directly leads to excellent temperature tolerance, which is critical to large-size Li-ion batteries.

Yes, temperature-related safety issues are mostly related to the dimensional shrinking or melting of the separator, but wettability is also important, since it facilitates electrolyte composition, which is better suited for high-temperature environments. We have already learned earlier, before Prof. Dahn's excellent lecture, that electrolyte additives can play a crucial role in improving life cycle peformance in high temperature environments. I believe that it was mwalsh, who has unearthed the fact that Nissan will likely transition to a ceramic-coated separator when the development of the "hot battery" was discussed.

That said, I don't think that it's appropriate to turn this thread into a discussion of the chemistry changes, which might or might not be coming. Based on the press reports, it appears that Nissan could have been working on this for some time. The point being, if and when a larger battery arrives, it could incorporate a number of other changes and tweaks, including those that would improve the performance in high-temperature environments. I would not automatically assume that a longer-range LEAF would simply contain more cells and have a physically larger battery pack. Is that fair enough to say?
drees wrote:In the LEAF, electrolyte oxidation is probably the major component of capacity loss given the high correlation to temperature and the fact that capacity loss does not appear to slow down at all over time.
I just noticed this, and have to disagree with the notion that capacity loss does not slow down over time. If you look at Stoaty's model, it implies dependency on square root of time, and it does slow down. A slight curve might be imperceptible to the casual observer, especially if it's not tracked or properly plotted, but this does not mean that the relationship between time and capacity loss was linear.

I appreciate your efforts to get more information on this, and help debunk this, but here I have to disagree. The whole purpose of collecting data and the work Stoaty has put into it, was to have a model based on empirical data, which would allow us to project the life cycle of the battery with greater accuracy.

Image
2011/2012 LEAF Projected Capacity Loss over 14 Years (Stoaty's Model with Default Assumptions)
Last edited by surfingslovak on Sat Mar 29, 2014 1:43 pm, edited 7 times in total.

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