smkettner
Posts: 7391
Joined: Mon Aug 09, 2010 10:13 pm
Delivery Date: 26 Feb 2014
Location: Orange County, CA

Re: Economics of long range Leaf

Sun Sep 21, 2014 7:18 pm

I wonder how many will prefer the iPhone 6+ for the 50% longer talk time and standby time?
1 bar lost at 21,451 miles, 16 months.
2 bar lost at 35,339 miles, 25 months.
LEAF traded at 45,400 miles for a RAV4-EV
RAV4 traded in for I-Pace Dec 2018

forummm
Posts: 139
Joined: Mon Aug 04, 2014 6:07 pm
Delivery Date: 28 Jun 2014
Leaf Number: 336370
Location: Atlanta, GA

Re: Economics of long range Leaf

Wed Sep 24, 2014 6:39 am

minispeed wrote:
evnow wrote:
minispeed wrote:.22cd can be done on a production car and As for weight from 12 to 13 they lost the aluminum panels and the weight still went down 60lbs and the cost went down too. Yes the light weight material is more expensive so removing the aluminum had something to do with the price drop but it shows that it is possible to get lighter for cheaper. Also light weight materials are cheaper than they were when they made the first leaf, steel itself has made huge gains in strength to weight ratio too. Investment in light weight material also have the benefit of sharing either the part, material supply, engineering costs, manufacturing experience with all of their ICE vehicles.
The weight went down because they dropped 300 pounds (IIRC) from the battery due to a more dense chemistry. Going from aluminum to steel (and perhaps other changes) increased the weight of the rest of the car.
150 Mile Club, 200 KM Club
2 Leaf (no ICE) Household

bbrowncods
Posts: 187
Joined: Fri Jun 06, 2014 8:53 pm
Delivery Date: 09 Jun 2014
Leaf Number: 339458
Location: Norfolk VA

Re: Economics of long range Leaf

Wed Sep 24, 2014 7:51 am

Hey if Ford can make the F150 over 300 pounds lighter by going all aluminum and only increase the cost of the truck by $150, then Nissan can do a lot better for the Leaf.
2014 Cayenne Red Leaf SL purchased 6/9/2014 (dealer received it on 6/7/2014), manufacture date 4/2014.
7/4/14 -629 miles, Temp 83, SOC 97.5, 59.81 Ahr, SOH 91%, Hx 91.44, 20.2 Kwh, Avg 4.127, High 4.136, Low 4.122, GIDS 267/92.5%.

User avatar
evnow
Moderator
Posts: 11480
Joined: Thu Apr 22, 2010 11:41 am
Delivery Date: 25 Feb 2011
Leaf Number: 303
Location: Seattle, WA

Re: Economics of long range Leaf

Wed Oct 08, 2014 7:58 am

I've split the topic from the post that started talking about REx. Sorry for all the on topic posts being moved out too ...

http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=55&t=18192" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Let us keep this thread to long range Leaf (i.e. BEV only).
1st Leaf : 2/28/2011 to 5/6/2013
2nd Leaf : 5/4/2013 to 3/21/2017
Volt : 3/25/2017 to 5/25/2018
Model 3 : 5/10/2018 to ?

kikngas
Posts: 124
Joined: Sat Aug 30, 2014 12:19 pm
Delivery Date: 15 Sep 2014
Leaf Number: 310377
Location: SE Minnesota

Re: Economics of long range Leaf

Sat Dec 06, 2014 7:57 pm

evnow wrote:The main number is $200/kWh.

For a 150 mile Leaf, we need 45 kWh battery, which would cost $9k.
...can Nissan build rest of the Leaf for $20k
...but isn't the question whether they can build the rest of the car for...
45kWh - 24kWh = 21kWh * $200 => $4,200 less?

In fact if you argue that the cost per kWh of the existing 24kWh battery is higher than any future 45kWh battery, the delta is even less.

smkettner
Posts: 7391
Joined: Mon Aug 09, 2010 10:13 pm
Delivery Date: 26 Feb 2014
Location: Orange County, CA

Re: Economics of long range Leaf

Sat Dec 06, 2014 10:42 pm

kikngas wrote:
evnow wrote:The main number is $200/kWh.

For a 150 mile Leaf, we need 45 kWh battery, which would cost $9k.
...can Nissan build rest of the Leaf for $20k
...but isn't the question whether they can build the rest of the car for...
45kWh - 24kWh = 21kWh * $200 => $4,200 less?

In fact if you argue that the cost per kWh of the existing 24kWh battery is higher than any future 45kWh battery, the delta is even less.
You cannot sell at cost. Better double that battery cost to be realistic retail price.
1 bar lost at 21,451 miles, 16 months.
2 bar lost at 35,339 miles, 25 months.
LEAF traded at 45,400 miles for a RAV4-EV
RAV4 traded in for I-Pace Dec 2018

minispeed
Posts: 681
Joined: Sun Jul 06, 2014 4:52 am
Delivery Date: 15 Jul 2014
Location: Ancaster, ON

Re: Economics of long range Leaf

Tue Dec 09, 2014 3:36 pm

smkettner wrote:
kikngas wrote:
evnow wrote:The main number is $200/kWh.

For a 150 mile Leaf, we need 45 kWh battery, which would cost $9k.
...can Nissan build rest of the Leaf for $20k
...but isn't the question whether they can build the rest of the car for...
45kWh - 24kWh = 21kWh * $200 => $4,200 less?

In fact if you argue that the cost per kWh of the existing 24kWh battery is higher than any future 45kWh battery, the delta is even less.
You cannot sell at cost. Better double that battery cost to be realistic retail price.
Cars have been sold at or below cost for years. The 1st gen leaf is an engineering exercise, same as the volt, 1st prius, 1st insight and many other cars (mostly high performance halo or race cars). None of them turned a profit. They are taking a risk to get a reputation that will allow them to have more market share. That reputation is very very valuable. Look at the sales numbers for the F150, Camry or Civic. The Civic for example had a redesign in 2012 that people hated. The press trashed the car. It lasted 1 year with another redesign in 2013 but due to the reputation it still sold really well.

The 2nd gen prius took a gamble and increased the tech/cost without turning a profit at first and look how well it turned out for them? The 2nd gen insight went cheap, used similar tech with known problems and probably turned a profit early on (if they actually sold enough since it sucked) and that car died off.
2015 White SV, after one month 292 GIDS
Best 1 charge drive, 229km (143miles)

bluedream42
Posts: 30
Joined: Sat Oct 08, 2011 11:41 am
Delivery Date: 01 Sep 2011
Leaf Number: 7673

Re: Economics of long range Leaf

Wed Dec 10, 2014 1:00 am

I think an infiniti EV will be priced closer to the Q50 Hybrid, minus gas engine + 50-60 Kwh pack. I'd also expect premium features like all aluminum body and maybe an "autopilot" feature. This car will eventually have to compete with the Tesla model III.
Now driving Silver 2015 SV w/ QC
retired a 2011 Cayenne Red SL, had only 22,000 mi.

NeilBlanchard
Posts: 619
Joined: Sat Oct 11, 2014 5:02 pm
Delivery Date: 14 Oct 2014
Leaf Number: 306278

Re: Economics of long range Leaf

Wed Dec 10, 2014 12:06 pm

Since the Illuminati Motor Works 'Seven' can go 220+ miles on a 33kWh pack, the price of the pack is highly dependent on how efficient the car is.

For reference, the IMW 'Seven' consumes just ~130Wh / mile at 60-70MPH. It achieves this by lower aerodynamic drag, higher plug-to-wheel efficiency (~92%), which includes no BMS and low loss mechanical drivetrain.

To "only" go 150 miles, the battery would barely need to be any larger than the current Leaf.

Longer range by better design = smaller battery = lower cost.

DeeAgeaux
Posts: 27
Joined: Thu Dec 04, 2014 2:52 pm

Re: Economics of long range Leaf

Wed Dec 10, 2014 2:47 pm

bbrowncods wrote:Hey if Ford can make the F150 over 300 pounds lighter by going all aluminum and only increase the cost of the truck by $150, then Nissan can do a lot better for the Leaf.

Estimates in the automotive press range from $700 to $1000 on the cost of the aluminum upgrade on the Ford F Series.

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