BestPal
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Leaf REx ?

Thu Oct 02, 2014 5:32 pm

What if Nissan went the BMW route for the Gen 2 Leaf and offered a slight but meaningful improvement of the electric range (say 100 EPA miles) for $25,000 base price and offered an OPTION of a small gas-burning range extender for another $2-4K, would you consider that as a better option than a larger/heavier battery that will give the total range of 150 miles? But again, like with today's 75-80 EPA miles, once you're out, you're out. With the range extender you could in theory go as long as you can keep refueling the small tank. And you'd only use that on occasional longer trips, you day-to-day driving would be covered by 100 electric miles with a piece of mind if something urgent comes up and you need to drive longer and have no time to charge - you're still covered. I personally like this idea, keep it usable, keep it light and keep it cheap. Please share your take on this.
Last edited by evnow on Wed Oct 08, 2014 8:01 am, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: Split from a non-REx related thread
_ _ _ _
2013 Leaf S with 6.6kW charger and DC
23,000+ miles driven
4.3 miles/kwh dash average
20% of driving is on So-Cal freeways 65-75mph

minispeed
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Re: Economics of long range Leaf

Thu Oct 02, 2014 6:01 pm

Range extenders are the way to go. It's very wastefull to have a battery if you don't use more than 70% of it.

Range extenders are also great for extreme cold weather where the range will be unpredictable or road conditions might change a lot half way through your trip.

It also means that you don't have to worry about capacity loss the same way. You'd never find out 42 months into a 48 month lease that your car just can't get you to work and back anymore.

I'd even be happy with a low speed vehicle type range extender, say 55mph max, 50% max acceleration power.

Sadly it doesn't fit with what Nissan has been saying.
2015 White SV, after one month 292 GIDS
Best 1 charge drive, 229km (143miles)

BrockWI
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Re: Economics of long range Leaf

Thu Oct 02, 2014 6:11 pm

While I like the idea of a "backup" ice the problem is management and maintenance for it. You get in to all kinds of things, like does it autostart and run to make sure it can every time you drive. You have to change the oil every so often and gasoline goes bad after sitting a while, then there is merging or syncing the two drive systems. I would think the least difficult would be to just have an on board ICE battery charger and leave all the "driving" to the electric side. And do you use the ice to heat and cool the cabin? Lots of things it adds to the vehicle.
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DanCar
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Re: Economics of long range Leaf

Thu Oct 02, 2014 6:50 pm

It would be nice if we could just rent a trailer range extender and not worry about maintenance. In five years trailers with batteries should be economically viable.
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minispeed
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Re: Economics of long range Leaf

Thu Oct 02, 2014 6:57 pm

BrockWI wrote:While I like the idea of a "backup" ice the problem is management and maintenance for it. You get in to all kinds of things, like does it autostart and run to make sure it can every time you drive. You have to change the oil every so often and gasoline goes bad after sitting a while, then there is merging or syncing the two drive systems. I would think the least difficult would be to just have an on board ICE battery charger and leave all the "driving" to the electric side. And do you use the ice to heat and cool the cabin? Lots of things it adds to the vehicle.

The volt uses a simple maintenance mode that also ties in burning off old fuel. The guys who use next to no fuel in volts have got in the habit of only putting in a galon at a time so when it burns it off you don't waste a tank. The BMW has around a 2 gallon tank.

It would only make sense to use the ICE to provide heat once it's up and running and that would be super easy to engineer. Cooling would still be from an electric AC compressor. If it is just a generator there's no merging of the drive systems. The car will always drive under ac motor power. In terms of oil change, probably once a year and probably only 2 quarts. Depnding on use you could probably do filters less often. That's a very small price to pay vs buying another 10kwhr battery up front.
2015 White SV, after one month 292 GIDS
Best 1 charge drive, 229km (143miles)

ydnas7
Posts: 590
Joined: Tue Sep 27, 2011 8:57 am

Re: Economics of long range Leaf

Thu Oct 02, 2014 7:19 pm

BestPal wrote:What if Nissan went the BMW route for the Gen 2 Leaf and offered a slight but meaningful improvement of the electric range (say 100 EPA miles) for $25,000 base price and offered an OPTION of a small gas-burning range extender for another $2-4K, would you consider that as a better option than a larger/heavier battery that will give the total range of 150 miles? But again, like with today's 75-80 EPA miles, once you're out, you're out. With the range extender you could in theory go as long as you can keep refueling the small tank. And you'd only use that on occasional longer trips, you day-to-day driving would be covered by 100 electric miles with a piece of mind if something urgent comes up and you need to drive longer and have no time to charge - you're still covered. I personally like this idea, keep it usable, keep it light and keep it cheap. Please share your take on this.

thats called a GM Volt or a Mitsubishi Outlander PHEV

Honda/BMW/Suzuki are real motorcycle companies, But Nissan GM etc are not motorcycle companies

putting a ICE into a car will cost $$$, and where do you place in fuel tank? BMW put it between the humans and the front crumple zone !!! (a valid reason to undersize the fuel tank)

BestPal
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Re: Economics of long range Leaf

Thu Oct 02, 2014 10:14 pm

ydnas7 wrote: ...thats called a GM Volt...
...
Sure, the Volt is a good concept but it is overpriced with a pathetic 35 miles electric range. We're talking about economics of the long range here and practicality of one-car electric vehicle ownership. With the Leaf I still keep my gas car. I have to. I'd rather not keep the second car around.
I'm talking BMW i3 recipe: (75 or more miles of pure electric range + extender) with Nissan Leaf pricing and extender as an option. Gives you real world economics and usability less extra weight of a larger battery to carry around every day when you don't need it. Where to put a 2 gal tank when the alternative is where to "hide" an additional 24kwh battery pack that weights 615lb... is that a serious question? BMW's range extender assembly weights only 259lb.
I think we should give Nissan engineers and their innovation a little bit more credit than that. Isn't this the beauty of designing a car from scratch?
_ _ _ _
2013 Leaf S with 6.6kW charger and DC
23,000+ miles driven
4.3 miles/kwh dash average
20% of driving is on So-Cal freeways 65-75mph

forummm
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Leaf Number: 336370
Location: Atlanta, GA

Re: Economics of long range Leaf

Fri Oct 03, 2014 7:00 am

BestPal wrote:
ydnas7 wrote: ...thats called a GM Volt...
...
Sure, the Volt is a good concept but it is overpriced with a pathetic 35 miles electric range. We're talking about economics of the long range here and practicality of one-car electric vehicle ownership. With the Leaf I still keep my gas car. I have to. I'd rather not keep the second car around.
I'm talking BMW i3 recipe: (75 or more miles of pure electric range + extender) with Nissan Leaf pricing and extender as an option. Gives you real world economics and usability less extra weight of a larger battery to carry around every day when you don't need it. Where to put a 2 gal tank when the alternative is where to "hide" an additional 24kwh battery pack that weights 615lb... is that a serious question? BMW's range extender assembly weights only 259lb.
I think we should give Nissan engineers and their innovation a little bit more credit than that. Isn't this the beauty of designing a car from scratch?
For me, it was cheaper to sell the ICE and just rent a car ($200/wk) if I need to go farther than the Leaf range. But I don't leave town often, and tend to fly when I do. And it's America, so we don't have that much vacation time. And QC stations are popping up on the freeways so maybe I can take it on a trip anyway.

You could buy a generator for a few hundred bucks and charge the car when you needed to go farther. And you could take it out of the truck when you weren't going to need it. You'd have to stop the car to charge it. But it would enable passage through spotty public charging infrastructure on trips.
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evnow
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Re: Economics of long range Leaf

Fri Oct 03, 2014 8:29 am

bbrowncods wrote:Hey if Ford can make the F150 over 300 pounds lighter by going all aluminum and only increase the cost of the truck by $150, then Nissan can do a lot better for the Leaf.
Not necessarily. May be Ford never thought of weight in F150 before and there was a lot of low hanging fruits to pick.
1st Leaf : 2/28/2011 to 5/6/2013
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evnow
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Re: Economics of long range Leaf

Fri Oct 03, 2014 8:32 am

minispeed wrote:Range extenders are the way to go. It's very wastefull to have a battery if you don't use more than 70% of it.
I think a lot of us here disagree.

Range extenders are a different class of vehicles, called PHEV. They have a place in the market - as do BEV. There is no one size fits all. I'd have zero interest in getting a range extended Leaf Gen 2. The right vehicle for range extension is a CUV/SUV (like Rogue).

This whole idea of "wasteful to have extra" can be extended to almost anything. Why have 4/5 seats when 70% of the time you drive alone ? Why lug around an ICE that you use only 10% of the time ? etc. etc.

In keeping with the theme of this thread, I disagree that it is cheaper to get a good range extender into Leaf than getting extra next gen battery. We are talking about $5k for a 25kWh battery @200 k/kWh. Now, let us not compare with i3 where you can get REx for $5k - since I don't think it is real range extension.
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