gatedad11
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Re: Economics of long range Leaf

Fri Oct 03, 2014 12:03 pm

"...Sure, the Volt is a good concept but it is overpriced with a pathetic 35 miles electric range. We're talking about economics of the long range here and practicality of one-car electric vehicle ownership..."

I think if you asked my family, they'd heartily disagree with at least some of your comments here. Recently I turned in my Mitsubishi I-MiEV for a low mileage used Volt. It's clearly cheaper (for us)to have the Volt as the EV in the family as opposed to the Mitsu. The range is about 50 miles for me, at present. The "I" had a range of 80 in the summer/spring/fall. However, the real value for me with the Volt is that I CAN use it as my only car. I have another(ICE)car, but it's getting old and at best was getting less than 20 MPG. I am not in a position, financially, to have 2 car payments. The Volt gets 40 MPG on the highway(many people report even higher average MPG). With the Volt I can drive my 35-50 miles per day(which is typical for me)but when I want to drive 150 miles I can do it, no fuss, no muss, no searching Plugshare for charging locations, etc. I loved my little BEV, but am enjoying the Volt MUCH more, and can see it being a versatile car, whereas the I was limited to just short trips. Having the Volt allows me to use a much more fuel efficient car on those days that I need more than the typical range of the Volt; I don't have to rent a car and all the while I am enjoying the ride immensely. To each his own. Not sure how the economics of a larger battery LEAF will play out, but I most definitely hope that Nissan can make it happen.
Lou

DaveinOlyWA
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Re: Economics of long range Leaf

Fri Oct 03, 2014 12:33 pm

EV Now; I think your pricing is dead on and I have to say that a likely reason LEAF I did not come out with longer range is the sticker would have scared off way too many current owners.

As mentioned, the #1 driving force for sales of the LEAF today is owners

just to add; what is the range we really need? I have to say 200 is it. But it really depends on cost because even with extreme driving needs like mine, 150 is also plenty 99% of the time. The other times, I would opt for a company car or if its personal, just rent one. Car rentals are pretty cheap and probably the best option. Now because of work, I opted for a super cheap 2nd gasser and I use it roughly 1-2 times a month and yes about half of those trips were simply to exercise the car and not because the LEAF could not make it
2011 SL; 44,598 mi, 87% SOH. 2013 S; 44,840 mi, 91% SOH. 2016 S30; 29,413 mi, 99% SOH. 2018 S; 25,185 mi, SOH 92.23%. 2019 S Plus; 2640.9 mi, 99.37% SOH
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mbender
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Re: Economics of long range Leaf

Fri Oct 03, 2014 2:51 pm

evnow wrote:
minispeed wrote:Range extenders are the way to go. It's very wastefull to have a battery if you don't use more than 70% of it.
I think a lot of us here disagree.
I agree ;-)
evnow wrote:Range extenders are a different class of vehicles, called PHEV. They have a place in the market - as do BEV. There is no one size fits all. I'd have zero interest in getting a range extended Leaf Gen 2. The right vehicle for range extension is a CUV/SUV (like Rogue).

This whole idea of "wasteful to have extra" can be extended to almost anything. Why have 4/5 seats when 70% of the time you drive alone ? Why lug around an ICE that you use only 10% of the time ? etc. etc.

In keeping with the theme of this thread, I disagree that it is cheaper to get a good range extender into Leaf than getting extra next gen battery. We are talking about $5k for a 25kWh battery @200 k/kWh. Now, let us not compare with i3 where you can get REx for $5k - since I don't think it is real range extension.
I agree with all of this, too. Range extenders are not the way to go (for the LEAF). As forummm said, rent an ICE on the few occasions you need the range or, if you really want a range extender, get a PHEV or haul your own generator around; there's no reason for Nissan to engineer it all just for a small % of possible customers.
I think I just felt my paradigm shift.

2012 SL (One of the colors): 2-year lease, 2012+,
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LeftieBiker
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Re: Economics of long range Leaf

Fri Oct 03, 2014 3:06 pm

Going back a ways...
If they could have easily reduced weight or improved cd, they'd have.

They are not going to do anything that will make Leaf look weird - they have already talked about making it look mainstream. You can't easily get better aero in a mainstream looking car with good interior space.
They made the Leaf look weird anyway, while not being especially slippery. The odd-looking tail could be improved (no need to worry about it ending up being odd looking!) and those cavernous wheel wells could be made smaller - or they could drop the 16" wheels on non-S models and go with 17" & 18" wheels designed to reduce drag. They might also try covers for the rear wells, a la the original Insight.
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BestPal
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Re: Economics of long range Leaf

Fri Oct 03, 2014 3:27 pm

So far it just proves that there is not a single solution that works for all. Nor should there be! Thus a a range extender OPTION is a good way to go. ICE cars (models) offer the same car with many choices of engines and transmissions to fit many consumers' wants and needs. You want the cheapest - get the base model. You want an extender, pay a little more. You want double the range (150 miles) with no extender - get the one with larger battery and pay a little more still. I truly believe that BMW is on the right track with their i3 and it's optional extender. If only they could bring the price down to compete with the Leaf, i3 sales would probably blow the leaf out out the water like.... a Leaf blower.

evnow wrote: ...
In keeping with the theme of this thread, I disagree that it is cheaper to get a good range extender into Leaf than getting extra next gen battery. We are talking about $5k for a 25kWh battery @200 k/kWh. Now, let us not compare with i3 where you can get REx for $5k - since I don't think it is real range extension.
Please get your facts straight, the i3's extender is offered for $3,850, not $5k. And that's BMW. Let's say nissan could bring the price below $3K for an extender which is not an unreasonable expectation. So for most of your commute needs you wouldn't have to carry around that 600lb extra 24kwh battery but would be equipped with a 250lb extender for when you need it. So lighter weight/more efficiency on regular commute under 75 all-electric miles and virtually unlimited range in gas mode when you need it, no planning and no time wasting at level 3 public charging stations, as well as that peace of mind that you always have that backup accompanied by lower initial sticker price. What's not to like? I'll take that REx any day of the week when compared to planning around Level 3 charging, failed stations when you get to one, a line of 2 cars in front of you waiting to charge when you find a working one (ask me how I know) and pricing per charge. I'm so done with that!!
Last edited by BestPal on Fri Oct 03, 2014 4:56 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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2013 Leaf S with 6.6kW charger and DC
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evnow
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Re: Economics of long range Leaf

Fri Oct 03, 2014 4:48 pm

LeftieBiker wrote:Going back a ways...
If they could have easily reduced weight or improved cd, they'd have.

They are not going to do anything that will make Leaf look weird - they have already talked about making it look mainstream. You can't easily get better aero in a mainstream looking car with good interior space.
They made the Leaf look weird anyway, while not being especially slippery. The odd-looking tail could be improved (no need to worry about it ending up being odd looking!) and those cavernous wheel wells could be made smaller - or they could drop the 16" wheels on non-S models and go with 17" & 18" wheels designed to reduce drag. They might also try covers for the rear wells, a la the original Insight.
Yes - they agree they made it look weird and that is one thing they've said they want to change.

What I meant was - they aren't going to make it a clone of Prius for aero.
1st Leaf : 2/28/2011 to 5/6/2013
2nd Leaf : 5/4/2013 to 3/21/2017
Volt : 3/25/2017 to 5/25/2018
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evnow
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Re: Economics of long range Leaf

Fri Oct 03, 2014 4:55 pm

BestPal wrote:So for most of your commute needs you wouldn't have to carry around that 600lb extra 24kwh battery but would be equipped with a 250lb extender for when you need it. So lighter weight/more efficiency on regular commute under 75 all-electric miles and virtually unlimited range in gas mode when you need it, no planning and no time wasting at level 3 public charging stations, as well as that peace of mind that you always have that backup accompanied by lower initial sticker price. What's not to like?
What's not to like ? The stinking fossil fuel.

BTW, you are using today's battery density not Gen 2s.
Accept for anecdotal cases of VERY LONG and VERY STEEP hills when REx mode doesn't allow to go at full highway speeds, it is a very real backup and real range extension!
Doesn't matter how many caps & exclamations you use. We all know very well what i3 REx is and what it is capable of. I can't get over any of the mountain passes that are all around us here. To make it a real range extender, they need to double the power, have atleast a 10 gallon tank and allow us to switch on the genset whenever we want. I don't stinkin' care about getting BMW gold credits in CA. Since that is all they care about, they produced a totally crippled REx.

BTW, i3 is impractical for us - for various reasons I've elaborately explained in great detail over the last year or so.

Most people buying REx would have bought BEV, if i3 had 200 miles of range.
1st Leaf : 2/28/2011 to 5/6/2013
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BestPal
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Re: Economics of long range Leaf

Fri Oct 03, 2014 5:01 pm

"I can't get over any of the mountain passes that are all around us here"
OK. Well then you're in the minority of drivers that wouldn't fit REx profile. Fine. It would work well for the rest of us.

I totally agree with crippled REx, the driver should be able to control when to engage it + a larger gas tank would be helpful. Could it be fixed in Nissan's new car? Sure it could. As far as not enough power, I drove the i3 extensively on the freeway in REx mode and didn't feel any appreciable loss of power.
_ _ _ _
2013 Leaf S with 6.6kW charger and DC
23,000+ miles driven
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20% of driving is on So-Cal freeways 65-75mph

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evnow
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Re: Economics of long range Leaf

Fri Oct 03, 2014 5:09 pm

I'd welcome a REx Nissan car. But not instead of a long range BEV.

This thread is about long range Leaf not a PHEV. So, lets' get back on topic.
1st Leaf : 2/28/2011 to 5/6/2013
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GRA
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Re: Economics of long range Leaf

Sat Oct 04, 2014 12:10 pm

BestPal wrote:"I can't get over any of the mountain passes that are all around us here"
OK. Well then you're in the minority of drivers that wouldn't fit REx profile. Fine. It would work well for the rest of us.

I totally agree with crippled REx, the driver should be able to control when to engage it + a larger gas tank would be helpful. Could it be fixed in Nissan's new car? Sure it could. As far as not enough power, I drove the i3 extensively on the freeway in REx mode and didn't feel any appreciable loss of power.
The i3 won't work for a lot of people here in the Bay Area either, as the Bay is surrounded by hills in almost every direction. In fact, the whole 'Class action' thread on the i3 forum was started as a result of an i3 owner whose car was unable to keep up a safe speed over the Hwy 17 grade to Santa Cruz, after depleting his battery getting to the base of it from eastern Contra Costa County. Similarly, anyone living in Sacramento who wants to take the i3 up to Tahoe will have exactly the same problem; just at the time you need the battery's extra power, you run out and are restricted to a low, unsafe speed running on the genset alone. I imagine people in Denver going up to ski near Vail would have similar issues, maybe those in SLC, and leaving the LA basin also means climbing on freeways. In short, unless you live in Flatland or can guarantee that your climbing will happen at the start of your trip instead of at the point where you're going into CS mode, the lack of a 'hold' switch for U.S. i3s is a deal breaker for lots of people.
Last edited by GRA on Sat Oct 04, 2014 1:30 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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