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TomT
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Leaf Number: 000360
Location: California, now Georgia
Contact: Website

Re: Economics of long range Leaf

Sat Oct 04, 2014 12:20 pm

I purposely ran it out of battery yesterday as we were tooling around in the Santa Clarita Valley. Headed up the I5 Grape Vine on the Rex, it initially did OK but quickly started to slow and by the time we reached near the first crest, it could not maintain more than 30 MPH... It was kind of scary actually. Some semis were passing me! We turned around and went back downhill!
BestPal wrote:I totally agree with crippled REx, the driver should be able to control when to engage it + a larger gas tank would be helpful. Could it be fixed in Nissan's new car? Sure it could. As far as not enough power, I drove the i3 extensively on the freeway in REx mode and didn't feel any appreciable loss of power.
Leaf SL 2011 to 2016, Volt Premier 2016 to 2019, and now:
2019 Model 3; LR, RWD, FSD, 19" Sport Wheels, silver/black; built 3/17/19, delivered 3/29/19.

GRA
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Location: East side of San Francisco Bay

Re: Economics of long range Leaf

Sat Oct 04, 2014 1:56 pm

TomT wrote:
BestPal wrote:I totally agree with crippled REx, the driver should be able to control when to engage it + a larger gas tank would be helpful. Could it be fixed in Nissan's new car? Sure it could. As far as not enough power, I drove the i3 extensively on the freeway in REx mode and didn't feel any appreciable loss of power.
I purposely ran it out of battery yesterday as we were tooling around in the Santa Clarita Valley. Headed up the I5 Grape Vine on the Rex, it initially did OK but quickly started to slow and by the time we reached near the first crest, it could not maintain more than 30 MPH... It was kind of scary actually. Some semis were passing me! We turned around and went back downhill!
Yup, completely unacceptable safety-wise, and I know some people on the i3 forum have reported it to the CPSC and or NHTSA.
Guy [I have lots of experience designing/selling off-grid AE systems, some using EVs but don't own one. Local trips are by foot, bike and/or rapid transit].

The 'best' is the enemy of 'good enough'. Copper shot, not Silver bullets.

asimba2
Posts: 354
Joined: Tue Nov 05, 2013 11:15 am
Delivery Date: 01 Jan 2014
Location: Northern CA

Re: Economics of long range Leaf

Sat Oct 04, 2014 8:26 pm

I am very excited about the future with 150-200 mile EVs. For *my* lifestyle, that kind of range would cover nearly all of my driving. When I do take a 250-300 mile trip, I usually need my SUV for the space, towing capability, etc., so paying a bunch of extra money for a range over 200 miles probably isn't worthwhile for me.

One thing I know for sure, I AM NOT INTERESTED in a range extender. I have enough gas cars to maintain, I don't need another one.

SmartElectric

Re: Economics of long range Leaf

Sat Oct 04, 2014 8:52 pm

evnow wrote: This whole idea of "wasteful to have extra" can be extended to almost anything. Why have 4/5 seats when 70% of the time you drive alone ? Why lug around an ICE that you use only 10% of the time ? etc. etc.
Precisely one of the reasons I bought a Smart Fortwo Electric Drive, as I only need it for commuting and trips to the store.

Like many, we're a two car family, so our "range extender" is a gas car that gets driven less than 10,000km per year, and most of that is 200+km trips in the dead of winter where the only reasonable replacement available today is the Tesla Model S with the 85kWh battery option.

So : I am compromising today by driving on gas for big trips, as I cannot rationalize the cost of the Tesla. Once a low cost car ($50k) with 300+km range is available, good bye gas!

adric22
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Leaf Number: 000768
Location: Fort Worth, TX

Re: Economics of long range Leaf

Sun Oct 05, 2014 6:16 am

BestPal wrote: Please get your facts straight, the i3's extender is offered for $3,850, not $5k. And that's BMW. Let's say nissan could bring the price below $3K for an extender which is not an unreasonable expectation. So for most of your commute needs you wouldn't have to carry around that 600lb extra 24kwh battery but would be equipped with a 250lb extender for when you need it. So lighter weight/more efficiency on regular commute under 75 all-electric miles and virtually unlimited range in gas mode when you need it, no planning and no time wasting at level 3 public charging stations, as well as that peace of mind that you always have that backup accompanied by lower initial sticker price. What's not to like? I'll take that REx any day of the week when compared to planning around Level 3 charging, failed stations when you get to one, a line of 2 cars in front of you waiting to charge when you find a working one (ask me how I know) and pricing per charge. I'm so done with that!!
You pretty much took the words right out of my mouth. I've done similar math several times and keep coming up with the same answer. ICE is cheaper than battery right now. So if you want a plug-in car, the most economical thing to do is find a PHEV with the battery range you need, and use the ICE for those rare trips. My Volt has essentially been an EV for me 99% of the time. I rarely drive more than 40 miles in a day, and there are times I've managed to drive 80 miles in a day and still not use gas thanks to nearby public chargers.

True.. Some could argue that I'm wastefully carrying around an ICE that I don't need. But at the same time, if I had to carry around enough batteries to compensate for a lack of that ICE, I'd be carrying around even more weight that I don't need. I totally love BMW's approach to the problem by making the Rex an option so each customer can decide for themselves.
2013 Blue Nissan Leaf SV
2012 Summit White Chevy Volt

smkettner
Posts: 7391
Joined: Mon Aug 09, 2010 10:13 pm
Delivery Date: 26 Feb 2014
Location: Orange County, CA

Re: Economics of long range Leaf

Sun Oct 05, 2014 8:32 am

TomT wrote:I purposely ran it out of battery yesterday as we were tooling around in the Santa Clarita Valley. Headed up the I5 Grape Vine on the Rex, it initially did OK but quickly started to slow and by the time we reached near the first crest, it could not maintain more than 30 MPH... It was kind of scary actually. Some semis were passing me! We turned around and went back downhill!
Could you just pull off and let it charge for an hour?
How fast will it go on a flat road when depleted?
1 bar lost at 21,451 miles, 16 months.
2 bar lost at 35,339 miles, 25 months.
LEAF traded at 45,400 miles for a RAV4-EV
RAV4 traded in for I-Pace Dec 2018

DaveinOlyWA
Posts: 14389
Joined: Sat Apr 24, 2010 7:43 pm
Delivery Date: 16 Nov 2019
Leaf Number: 319862
Location: Olympia, WA
Contact: Website

Re: Economics of long range Leaf

Sun Oct 05, 2014 11:03 am

adric22 wrote:
BestPal wrote: Please get your facts straight, the i3's extender is offered for $3,850, not $5k. And that's BMW. Let's say nissan could bring the price below $3K for an extender which is not an unreasonable expectation. So for most of your commute needs you wouldn't have to carry around that 600lb extra 24kwh battery but would be equipped with a 250lb extender for when you need it. So lighter weight/more efficiency on regular commute under 75 all-electric miles and virtually unlimited range in gas mode when you need it, no planning and no time wasting at level 3 public charging stations, as well as that peace of mind that you always have that backup accompanied by lower initial sticker price. What's not to like? I'll take that REx any day of the week when compared to planning around Level 3 charging, failed stations when you get to one, a line of 2 cars in front of you waiting to charge when you find a working one (ask me how I know) and pricing per charge. I'm so done with that!!
You pretty much took the words right out of my mouth. I've done similar math several times and keep coming up with the same answer. ICE is cheaper than battery right now. So if you want a plug-in car, the most economical thing to do is find a PHEV with the battery range you need, and use the ICE for those rare trips. My Volt has essentially been an EV for me 99% of the time. I rarely drive more than 40 miles in a day, and there are times I've managed to drive 80 miles in a day and still not use gas thanks to nearby public chargers.

True.. Some could argue that I'm wastefully carrying around an ICE that I don't need. But at the same time, if I had to carry around enough batteries to compensate for a lack of that ICE, I'd be carrying around even more weight that I don't need. I totally love BMW's approach to the problem by making the Rex an option so each customer can decide for themselves.
you can talk about it all you want but it aint gonna happen.

interesting that we take the entire weight of the battery pack against just the weight of the engine as if we could drop one in without any other changes?
2011 SL; 44,598 mi, 87% SOH. 2013 S; 44,840 mi, 91% SOH. 2016 S30; 29,413 mi, 99% SOH. 2018 S; 25,185 mi, SOH 92.23%. 2019 S Plus; 2640.9 mi, 99.37% SOH
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BestPal
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Re: Economics of long range Leaf

Sun Oct 05, 2014 2:36 pm

DaveinOlyWA wrote: you can talk about it all you want but it aint gonna happen.
Because.... You are on the Nissan's electric car division executive board and you single-handedly vetoed possibility of range extenders???
DaveinOlyWA wrote: interesting that we take the entire weight of the battery pack against just the weight of the engine as if we could drop one in without any other changes?
No we don't. We leave the existing 24kwh 615lb pack in as it is right now and we compare an additional 615lb pack (provided existing technology and energy density remains constant) to get the Leaf to 150miles electric range to an additional weight of the range extender's full assembly that weights in at ~259lb, not just the engine. The thread is about economics of long range, so lets take everything into consideration, including the extra weight to carry for shorter daily commutes, extra price to pay initially and a necessity in another full ICE car to be owned and maintained. Talk economics - let's do it. As someone mentioned before, paradoxically, one would drive MORE electric miles if they had a range extender because they would take their REx car on a longer drive which would partially be covered by electric power vs. the alternative of taking the ICE car out of the garage and driving on gas for the entire length of the longer trip.

I'm all in for not burning another drop of gas if possible but today's reality, pricing and battery technology dictates to consider REx as a viable option economically speaking. When the technology/pricing of battery changes, it may and likely will become an obsolete approach but in today's reality dismissing it all together and completely throwing it out of the discussion is short sighted IMHO.
_ _ _ _
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adric22
Posts: 2488
Joined: Fri Apr 23, 2010 2:40 pm
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Location: Fort Worth, TX

Re: Economics of long range Leaf

Mon Oct 06, 2014 7:32 am

BestPal wrote: Talk economics - let's do it. As someone mentioned before, paradoxically, one would drive MORE electric miles if they had a range extender because they would take their REx car on a longer drive which would partially be covered by electric power vs. the alternative of taking the ICE car out of the garage and driving on gas for the entire length of the longer trip.
Which reminds me of another point I often bring up to people. Having a range extender actually increases the useful size of the battery. Because most BEV drivers will leave a healthy buffer zone when planning a longer drive. Myself, I like to leave at least 20 miles of buffer when driving the Leaf. In case there is a detour, or something unexpected that causes me to need more range. A PHEV driver does not need to worry about that. With my Volt I can use the entire amount of available battery capacity even down to the last mile. Which means in practice my Volt has an EV range around 40 miles and my Leaf has an EV range about 65 miles.
2013 Blue Nissan Leaf SV
2012 Summit White Chevy Volt

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evnow
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Re: Economics of long range Leaf

Mon Oct 06, 2014 8:23 am

BestPal wrote: Talk economics - let's do it. As someone mentioned before, paradoxically, one would drive MORE electric miles if they had a range extender because they would take their REx car on a longer drive which would partially be covered by electric power vs. the alternative of taking the ICE car out of the garage and driving on gas for the entire length of the longer trip.
It is a paradox only because people who think like that haven't done Statistics 101. This is a typical case of confusing correlation with causation. It is not that ONE would drive more EV miles with a PHEV, but people who drive a lot select PHEVs - which makes sense.

If I had Volt instead of Leaf, I'd drive less on EV. That is because today 100% of my driving is electrical. With Volt all my downtown and up north or down south trips would be fossil fueled.

I suggest creating a new thread for the idea of a LEAF REx (if you see older threads, I've argued for such a vehicles).

Now back on topic.

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