GregH
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Re: Leaf 2 is going to be very nice looking : Nakamura

Sun Oct 12, 2014 3:29 pm

If Leaf 2 looks anything like those first few photos it really should have something more than an 80kW motor.. just saying.
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ILETRIC
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Re: Leaf 2 is going to be very nice looking : Nakamura

Sun Oct 12, 2014 4:19 pm

What's it gonna look like? I think we're barking up a wrong tree here... What kind of battery it's going to have is the question we should be concerned with. Because it's the bigger battery at 35 grand that wins THIS competition while the looks will come a far distant second.

I am way past looks, ingress and egress. I'd like to travel around Bay Area in my EV. And I have this sneaky suspicion it's not going to happen in a Nissan anytime soon.
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dgpcolorado
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Re: Leaf 2 is going to be very nice looking : Nakamura

Sun Oct 12, 2014 4:45 pm

evnow wrote:I Expect Model 3 to be more sexy and less practical. Even the land barge S has rear seat issues.

BTW, I've to say in terms of ingress/egress Leaf is nearly perfect. It is easy for even my 80 year od mother-in-law.
While I don't care about the back seat, I am inclined to agree with you about the Model III. However, I'll live with a low roof car that is awkward to enter and exit if it can use the Supercharger network! That's a form of "practical" that is way beyond anything offered by any other EV manufacturer! With a double range LEAF 2, I still wouldn't be able to drive to Denver and back (650 miles and a lot of mountains). Never mind trips to Oregon and back (2200 miles).
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evnow
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Re: Leaf 2 is going to be very nice looking : Nakamura

Sun Oct 12, 2014 6:23 pm

ILETRIC wrote:What's it gonna look like? I think we're barking up a wrong tree here... What kind of battery it's going to have is the question we should be concerned with. Because it's the bigger battery at 35 grand that wins THIS competition while the looks will come a far distant second.
I suspect many OEMs will have a similar "200" mile vehicle for about $35k, by 2018 or so. There will be some at $40k or more (Model 3, Infiniti, Audi etc). So, what one buys will depend on things other than the range - like looks, space, dealers, deals, lease etc

"200 mile" will become the new "100 mile".

Back on topic, I think it makes sense to not lose sales because of the way car looks (that is why you see very bland and similar "mainstream" looks for majority of the cars).
1st Leaf : 2/28/2011 to 5/6/2013
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NeilBlanchard
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Re: Leaf 2 is going to be very nice looking : Nakamura

Sun Oct 12, 2014 6:36 pm

If an EV has lower aero drag, then the range is increased using a smaller battery. A smaller battery pack, obviously costs less.

Also keep in mind that the Tesla Model S has the same CdA as the gen 3 Prius. (See the recent Car&Driver aero test.) Having a lower Cd means you can have a larger car, and still have low drag.

The Renault Eolab can be scaled to a size that keeps the interior volume of the current Leaf, and it would have 120-140 miles range on the current battery pack; let alone a higher energy density battery a few years from now.

Another data point is the Illuminati Motor Works 'Seven' which has 220+ mile range on a ~33kWh pack. It had about 10% charge left, actually. That car has the lowest energy consumption of any EV I know of: ~130Wh / mile at 60-70MPH. If the Leaf 2 had equal efficiency, it would have ~165 mile range on the current 24kWh pack.

derkraut
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Re: Leaf 2 is going to be very nice looking : Nakamura

Sun Oct 12, 2014 6:54 pm

DaveinOlyWA wrote:
dgpcolorado wrote:
NeilBlanchard wrote:Another possible look for the Leaf 2 is the Renault Eolab concept car...
I would hate to have to try to get into and out of that car. I found the low roof Volt very awkward to enter and exit and that concept car looks worse. I want practical, not sexy.

However, I expect to be moving over to the Model III when it comes out, so I guess the question of what LEAF 2 looks like is moot for me (unless they make it Supercharger capable, which seems unlikely).

maybe I am just getting old but the LEAF is BY FAR FAR FAR, the easiest car I own to climb in and out of. I don't have trucks or SUVs but all my cars feel like I am climbing out of hole except the LEAF
+1; I couldn't agree more, Dave :)
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evnow
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Re: Leaf 2 is going to be very nice looking : Nakamura

Mon Oct 13, 2014 8:12 am

NeilBlanchard wrote:If an EV has lower aero drag, then the range is increased using a smaller battery. A smaller battery pack, obviously costs less.
Sure - but at what cost ? If everything else is equal (manufacturing cost, utility in terms of space, styling to attract a big enough market ...), then obviously better aero is better (duh !). But, when it comes to various compromises that have to be made, it gets tricky to balance competing needs.
Also keep in mind that the Tesla Model S has the same CdA as the gen 3 Prius. (See the recent Car&Driver aero test.) Having a lower Cd means you can have a larger car, and still have low drag.
As I said earlier, Leaf had to be higher than Prius because of batteries. We don't know how it will work for Leaf 2. My guess is that the new battery is not 2x the volumetric density of the old battery - and as such might need more and not less space than Leaf 1.
The Renault Eolab can be scaled to a size that keeps the interior volume of the current Leaf, and it would have 120-140 miles range on the current battery pack; let alone a higher energy density battery a few years from now.

Another data point is the Illuminati Motor Works 'Seven' which has 220+ mile range on a ~33kWh pack. It had about 10% charge left, actually. That car has the lowest energy consumption of any EV I know of: ~130Wh / mile at 60-70MPH. If the Leaf 2 had equal efficiency, it would have ~165 mile range on the current 24kWh pack.
All this means nothing if we don't know the manufacturing cost. That is the reason few concept cars get produced exactly the same way.

One thing we should all appreciate is that this is a hard engineering problem. I'm sure people who are designing the Leaf have much better understanding of all these parameters than we do ...
1st Leaf : 2/28/2011 to 5/6/2013
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evnow
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Re: Leaf 2 is going to be very nice looking : Nakamura

Mon Oct 13, 2014 8:13 am

GregH wrote:If Leaf 2 looks anything like those first few photos it really should have something more than an 80kW motor.. just saying.
Yes - they should atleast have a perf option.
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NeilBlanchard
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Re: Leaf 2 is going to be very nice looking : Nakamura

Mon Oct 13, 2014 9:02 am

Yes, a taller car because of the battery pack can still have a low Cd, and still have low drag. Once it is designed, building a low drag car doesn't cost any more - it is the shape and the details that matter for low drag.

I know people who have built their own cars, and I have designed and I am building an electric car, called CarBEN EV5. It is open source, and it seats 5 people.

http://neilblanchard.blogspot.com/2013_ ... chive.html
http://neilblanchard.blogspot.com/2013/ ... n-for.html
http://smg.photobucket.com/user/NeilBla ... t=3&page=1
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A49N2on ... tA&index=8
Last edited by NeilBlanchard on Mon Oct 13, 2014 9:09 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Nubo
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Re: Leaf 2 is going to be very nice looking : Nakamura

Mon Oct 13, 2014 9:09 am

I rather like the LEAF's styling. It's distinctive without being obnoxious. There's the issue of recognition. It's been a battle to gain awareness and acceptance. LEAF has been steadily gaining sales numbers and that translates to public recognition. If it were me, I'd let that recognition continue to build and maybe refine the design instead of a complete re-do. And, there's nothing saying that Nissan can't have TWO EVs in their lineup... I'd keep the LEAF and offer an affordable 2-seat convertible EV roadster.
I noticed you're still working with polymers.

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