SageBrush
Posts: 4907
Joined: Sun Mar 06, 2011 2:28 am
Delivery Date: 13 Feb 2017
Location: NM

Re: 2019 "60 kWh" Leaf e-Plus

Wed Oct 16, 2019 8:31 pm

DougWantsALeaf wrote:
Wed Oct 16, 2019 11:22 am
While I haven't charged at rates above 70-73kW, I would hypothesize that charging at a faster rate creates less heat per kWh of charge. It would be interesting to see heat vs. power at different rates.
Power is proportional to current;
Heat is proportional to the square of the current
2013 LEAF 'S' Model with QC & rear-view camera
Bought off-lease Jan 2017 from N. California
Two years in Colorado, now in NM
03/2018: 58 Ahr, 28k miles
11/2018: 56.16 Ahr, 30k miles
-----
2018 Tesla Model 3 LR, Delivered 6/2018

DaveinOlyWA
Posts: 14223
Joined: Sat Apr 24, 2010 7:43 pm
Delivery Date: 16 Nov 2019
Leaf Number: 319862
Location: Olympia, WA
Contact: Website

Re: 2019 "60 kWh" Leaf e-Plus

Thu Oct 17, 2019 7:15 am

Astros wrote:
Tue Oct 15, 2019 12:57 pm
We got back home last night, so I can finally write up our trip with our Leaf Plus. We've taken this same trip from Seattle to Ashland previously with a 30kWh and a 40kWh Leaf, and in previous years it took us almost 13 hours, mostly due to very slow charging.

According to Google Maps, with no stops or traffic our route should be 462 miles and take 7 hours and 32 minutes. We ran into very little traffic, and no broken or occupied chargers on our trip South, and reached Ashland in 10 hours and 38 minutes. On the return trip, we ran into rush hour traffic in Portland, and two of the chargers were already occupied by a Leaf when we arrived, so it took us 11 hours and 15 minutes.

Friday
Cruise control set to 65-70 for entire trip, except for short stretches in reduced speed zones or for traffic.
  • 8:38am: leave Seattle
    42°F outside, 55° battery (4 bars)
  • 10:49am: Arrive Castle Rock (Webasto), 121 miles
    48°F outside, 68.2°F battery (5 bars)
    Charging: 44.2kW at the start, 29.6kW at the end with 88.3% SoC. 31.18kWh delivered over 46 minutes, 40.67kW average
  • 11:35am: Leave
    48°F outside, 89.6°F battery (6 bars)
  • 2:53pm: Arrive Cottage Grove (Webasto), 184 miles
    64°F outside, 97°F battery
    --- on dash, 10.5% SoC LeafSpy
    41.6kW at the start, 19.7kW at the end with 73.1% SoC. 38.89kWh delivered over 83 minutes, 28.11kW average
  • 4:16pm: Leave
    68°F outside, 114.8°F battery (8 bars)
  • 6:13pm: Arrive Grants Pass (Webasto), 119 miles
    64°F outside, 113.8°F battery
    30.0 kW at the start, 30.2kW at the end. 7.0kWh delivered over 14 minutes, 30.0kW average
  • 6:28pm: Leave
    64°F outside, 114.8°F battery
  • 7:16pm: Arrive Ashland, 42.5 miles
    55°F outside, 116.6°F battery
    20.9 miles remaining to 1% according to LeafSpy
474 miles total (including 9 miles in the morning for an errand)

Monday return to Seattle
My wife also drove two of the legs, and picked different speeds.
  • 9:51am: Leave Ashland, with 96% SoC
    50°F outside, 53.9°F battery
  • 11:50am: Arrive Sutherlin (Electrify America), 121 miles
    51°F outside, 70.0°F battery
    44.7kW at the start, 34kW at the end, 47.75kW peak. 29.7kWh delivered over 38 minutes, 46.69kW average.
  • 12:36pm: Leave
    (I didn't record temperatures)
  • 2:58pm: Arrive Salem (Blink), 124 miles
    The charger by the capitol was occupied, so we had to drive over to the Fred Meyers to charge.
    32.9kWh delivered over 47 minutes, 42kW average
  • 3:45pm: Leave
    I didn't record temperatures, but 8 bars on the dash
  • 6:21pm: Arrive Castle Rock (Webasto), 102 miles
    59°F outside, 105.6° battery
    43.7 kW at the start. 26.03kWh delivered over 41 minutes, 38.09kW average
  • 7:02pm: Leave
    59°F outside, 120.5°F battery
  • 9:06pm: Arrive Seattle, 121 miles
    51°F outside, 114.6°F battery
    41.2 miles remaining to 1% according to LeafSpy
Nice write up. Interested in seeing a relationship between battery temps, starting charge current and what SOC the charge rate starts to drop (knee) You will need to do this again when the 100 KW chargers are available.

FYI; I am VERY impressed with your bladder control!
2011 SL; 44,598 mi, 87% SOH. 2013 S; 44,840 mi, 91% SOH. 2016 S30; 29,413 mi, 99% SOH. 2018 S; 25,185 mi, SOH 92.23%. 2019 S Plus; 412 mi, 99.72% SOH
My Blog; http://daveinolywa.blogspot.com" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Astros
Posts: 132
Joined: Wed Oct 11, 2017 11:21 am
Delivery Date: 28 Apr 2018
Leaf Number: 310136
Location: Seattle, WA

Re: 2019 "60 kWh" Leaf e-Plus

Thu Oct 17, 2019 1:06 pm

As others have said, I'm not convinced 100kW chargers would have actually sped up our trip. The first charge would certainly be a bit faster, but since the charge taper kicked in even at a 50kW charger I can't imagine you would get long at the maximum rate. Then, if that first 100kW charge session heated the battery more than a 50kW session would have, the second and third sessions would be even slower.
Personally, I would gladly take two 50kW chargers close to decent attractions like a restaurant, grocery store, or park, over a single 100kW charger in a Walmart parking lot. For longer trips like these it's very nice to get out of the car for 20-40 minutes and stretch our legs or get a bite to eat.
2019 Deep Blue SL Plus

DougWantsALeaf
Posts: 1063
Joined: Fri May 10, 2013 8:21 pm
Delivery Date: 18 May 2013
Leaf Number: 407811
Location: Chicago North Side

Re: 2019 "60 kWh" Leaf e-Plus

Mon Oct 21, 2019 12:08 pm

Quote today from Speak Ev

husoi said:
True but I always refer to the % indicated in dash because not everybody have LSP.
the 2% run was to have an idea how extreme I can go. normally will do a rapid charge when reaching 18% to 22%.
Earlier today had to travel on M25 from Croydon up to Milton Keynes. Unfortunately, I didnt charge the car and had about 25 miles left. I thought I'd charge at Ecotricity right after QE Bridge, but I missed the junction and...oops...the next Ecotricity was about 20 miles away....that was 15 miles more than my meter was showing. I had an option of turning back on the next junction or getting into London, but I did feel adventurous and decided to get to Mimms station. It was stressful. However, despite battery showing 0%, I reached the station without getting to the turtle mode. 5 stars to e+ :)
Was charging at usual 50kW Ecotricity charger and got 38.3kW is 48 minutes. Not too bad I must say.
All in all, good resilience test and great result!
2019 SV Plus Silver
2013 Leaf SV
100 Mile Club Member (Number 87)
Max distance on 13 Leaf: 120 miles
Max distance on 19 Leaf: 242 Highway 4.5 miles/kWh (4.9 KWh remaining)

EatsShootsandLeafs
Posts: 635
Joined: Fri Aug 24, 2012 10:59 am
Delivery Date: 24 Aug 2012

Re: 2019 "60 kWh" Leaf e-Plus

Wed Oct 23, 2019 10:36 am

Re. the above and a road trip, not a chance in hell I'd take a road trip in an EV. It's still a totally immature technology/infrastructure for this in virtually all of the country, inviting a completely unnecessary degree of stress and annoyance. I have always and continue to believe EV proponents should not even try and push EVs as plausible road-trip cars. Maybe if you're retired and have nowhere to be in a hurry, otherwise stick with a hybrid or a plain old ICE.

I'm still absolutely looking to get back into an EV in the nearish future, but purely as a city car.

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jlv
Moderator
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Delivery Date: 30 Apr 2014
Leaf Number: 424487
Location: Massachusetts

Re: 2019 "60 kWh" Leaf e-Plus

Wed Oct 23, 2019 11:46 am

EatsShootsandLeafs wrote:
Wed Oct 23, 2019 10:36 am
Re. the above and a road trip, not a chance in hell I'd take a road trip in an EV with a smaller battery and crippled DCFC speeds.
I fixed that for you.

Please don't extrapolate from the LEAF and denigrate other BEVs that don't have it's pitfalls.
LEAF '13 SL+Prem (mfg 12/13, leased 4/14, bought 5/17, sold 11/18) 34K mi, AHr 58, SOH 87%
Tesla S 75D (3/17)
Tesla X 100D (12/18)
85K 100% BEV miles since '14
ICE free since '18

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OrientExpress
Posts: 1503
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Delivery Date: 10 May 2011
Leaf Number: 2331
Location: San Jose, Ca

Re: 2019 "60 kWh" Leaf e-Plus

Wed Oct 23, 2019 12:59 pm

Every BEV, from Tesla to Nissan suffers from multiple disadvantages when it comes to long distance travel. And they are serious enough that these shortcomings will hinder BEVs gaining more than 2-3% of the world-wide fleet any time soon.

For BEVs to achieve parity with ICEs and be considered by the other 98% of the non-BEV world they must do ALL of the following. Every Bev can do some of these items but none can do all.

1. Speed: They must be able to be driven at 80 mph over their entire range. Most can do this today.

2. Range: They must have at least a 400 mile range while be driven at 80mph which is normal for just about every mainstream ICE today regardless if that range is needed or not by the operator. Some BEVs are getting close to this.

3. Refueling time: They must be able to be recharged to at least 80% (concession to the general fragility of BEV energy storage systems) in 30 minutes or less, and be able to be recharged at that speed repeatedly. Some can achieve this today.

4. Cost: They must cost under $30K not including incentives or subsidies. This is the price for the majority of new vehicles that are sold today. There is at least one BEV that can do this, but falls short in other areas. Every ICE that costs under $30K can meet or beat items 1-3.

At the present, BEVs perform at the level of a 1965 ICE vehicle. Their range at speed is rarely above 250 miles when driven at 80, their costs still place them in the luxury not mainstream market, and their recharging performance and availability is spotty beyond urban and interstate environments.
Last edited by OrientExpress on Wed Oct 23, 2019 2:44 pm, edited 1 time in total.
2018 LEAF SL
Gun Metalic
Delivery April 10 2018

Prior LEAF:
2014 LEAF SV
Ocean Blue
Delivery May 23 2014
50,000+ miles - all 12 bars - Same range as new - No warranty issues ever!

DougWantsALeaf
Posts: 1063
Joined: Fri May 10, 2013 8:21 pm
Delivery Date: 18 May 2013
Leaf Number: 407811
Location: Chicago North Side

Re: 2019 "60 kWh" Leaf e-Plus

Wed Oct 23, 2019 1:55 pm

80MPH....I wouldn't drive my ICE that fast as the wheels would fall off.

Here in Chicago, the freeways are 55mph. You can do 65-70 in places, but usually traffic makes you go much slower.
2019 SV Plus Silver
2013 Leaf SV
100 Mile Club Member (Number 87)
Max distance on 13 Leaf: 120 miles
Max distance on 19 Leaf: 242 Highway 4.5 miles/kWh (4.9 KWh remaining)

User avatar
OrientExpress
Posts: 1503
Joined: Sun Aug 08, 2010 12:22 pm
Delivery Date: 10 May 2011
Leaf Number: 2331
Location: San Jose, Ca

Re: 2019 "60 kWh" Leaf e-Plus

Wed Oct 23, 2019 1:58 pm

DougWantsALeaf wrote:
Wed Oct 23, 2019 1:55 pm
80MPH....I wouldn't drive my ICE that fast as the wheels would fall off.

Here in Chicago, the freeways are 55mph. You can do 65-70 in places, but usually traffic makes you go much slower.
Ha! In the South, West and Flyover states, Interstate speeds are rarely below 75.
2018 LEAF SL
Gun Metalic
Delivery April 10 2018

Prior LEAF:
2014 LEAF SV
Ocean Blue
Delivery May 23 2014
50,000+ miles - all 12 bars - Same range as new - No warranty issues ever!

EatsShootsandLeafs
Posts: 635
Joined: Fri Aug 24, 2012 10:59 am
Delivery Date: 24 Aug 2012

Re: 2019 "60 kWh" Leaf e-Plus

Wed Oct 23, 2019 2:14 pm

OrientExpress wrote:
Wed Oct 23, 2019 12:59 pm
Every BEV, from Tesla to Nissan suffers from multiple disadvantages when it comes to long distance travel. And they are serious enough that these shortcomings will hinder BEVs gaining more than 2-3% of the world-wide fleet any time soon.

For BEVs to achieve parity with ICEs and be considered by the other 98% of the non-BEV world they must do ALL of the following. Every Bev can do some of these items but none can do all.

1. Speed: They must be able to be driven at 80 mph over their entire range. Most can do this today
2. Range: They must have at least a 400 mile range while be driven at 80mph which is normal for just about every mainstream ICE today regardless if that range is needed or not by the operator. Some BEVs are getting close to this.
3. Refueling time: They must be able to be recharged to at least 80% (concession to the general fragility of BEV energy storage systems) in 30 minutes or less, and be able to be recharged at that speed repeatedly. Some can achieve this today.
4. Cost: They must cost under $30K not including incentives or subsidies. This is the price for the majority of new vehicles that are sold today. There is at least one BEV that can do this, but falls short in other areas. Every ICE that costs under $30K can meet or beat items 1-3.

At the present, BEVs perform at the level of a 1965 ICE vehicle. Their range at speed is rarely above 250 miles when driven at 80, their costs still place them in the luxury not mainstream market, and their recharging performance and availability is spotty beyond urban and interstate environments.
I agree except I'd add on to #3 and say that a 30 min recharge time is never going to be acceptable for a lot of people. Even 50% in 15 minutes won't do. People don't want to go backwards with technology. Any car on the road today can be refueled from getting off the road to back on it in 3-5 minutes depending on how slow the driver is moving around the vehicle. And that's 400 miles. People just won't tolerate 30 minute stops.

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