DaveinOlyWA
Posts: 14977
Joined: Sat Apr 24, 2010 7:43 pm
Delivery Date: 16 Nov 2019
Leaf Number: 319862
Location: Olympia, WA
Contact: Website

Re: 2019 "60 kWh" Leaf e-Plus

Mon Jun 08, 2020 7:18 pm

danrjones wrote:
Mon Jun 08, 2020 7:16 am
DougWantsALeaf wrote:
Sun Jun 07, 2020 7:57 am
Dave

Glad to see you posting again in your blog. My latest thought on the 90 day steps downs is that Nissan uses the first year to build a buffer on the battery to improve longevity and reduce the degradation. When I first got the car, Leaf spy read over 59kWh, which would only be a 4% buffer at the top. I looking at the other brands (Audi, Mercedes, even GM) it looks like 8-10% is a safer buffer. Supposedly even GM did a software update to hide about 2kWh on the Bolt battery (news Coulomb), but I don’t have anything beyond YouTube reports to back that up.

So Nissan gives you a tighter buffer in quarter 1, allowing for a higher epa range. It then slowly pulls a little away each quarter for a year (let’s hope just a year) to bring the buffer up. Now what we can’t see is in that first year, is how much the battery itself degrades, hence I believe some of the variations on the board. All hypothesis.

Let’s see what the next adjustment brings.
Wouldn't that be illegal? If the EPA rating is XYZ and then the carmaker steals that from you, that seems pretty shady. I know I signed a bunch of papers to the fact the battery would degrade, but I do not remember signing anything that Nissan could artificially degrade my battery. That sounds, if true, like a lawsuit waiting to happen.
WOE!!!! WTF!!! "artificially degrade??" Who said that?? What they are doing (maybe) is hiding part of the battery to protect it. Nothing more than what the Volt did among others.
2011 SL; 44,598 mi, 87% SOH. 2013 S; 44,840 mi, 91% SOH. 2016 S30; 29,413 mi, 99% SOH. 2018 S; 25,185 mi, SOH 92.23%. 2019 S Plus; 11,333.1 mi, 93.73% SOH
My Blog; http://daveinolywa.blogspot.com" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

DaveinOlyWA
Posts: 14977
Joined: Sat Apr 24, 2010 7:43 pm
Delivery Date: 16 Nov 2019
Leaf Number: 319862
Location: Olympia, WA
Contact: Website

Re: 2019 "60 kWh" Leaf e-Plus

Mon Jun 08, 2020 7:25 pm

danrjones wrote:
Mon Jun 08, 2020 9:25 am
DougWantsALeaf wrote:
Mon Jun 08, 2020 9:00 am
Tesla and GM have done similar changes as they understand their customers batteries better.
Yes I do recall Tesla making adjustments, but in that case, if I remember correctly, TESLA still was giving the customer at least the EPa rated range were they not? plus some of their adjustments were to charging profile, which is not guaranteed.

If a manufacturer actually reduced your range artificially below the EPA number that they sold it to you at, that sounds illegal.
Let me clue you in on a joke. The EPA did not test the LEAF. Do you know how they test cars? If I drove the way they tested, I would get 300 miles on a charge. The EPA got their LEAF figures from Nissan. Yep, they simply took Nissan's word for it so why did Nissan low ball their own car?

Because they don't want you driving more than 216 miles on a charge. They want you to stop and charge way before Turtle. This is the reason they now have an SOC meter that goes to zero. Yep, it actually goes to 1% before going to dashes.
2011 SL; 44,598 mi, 87% SOH. 2013 S; 44,840 mi, 91% SOH. 2016 S30; 29,413 mi, 99% SOH. 2018 S; 25,185 mi, SOH 92.23%. 2019 S Plus; 11,333.1 mi, 93.73% SOH
My Blog; http://daveinolywa.blogspot.com" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

DougWantsALeaf
Posts: 2000
Joined: Fri May 10, 2013 8:21 pm
Delivery Date: 18 May 2013
Leaf Number: 407811
Location: Chicago North Side

Re: 2019 "60 kWh" Leaf e-Plus

Tue Jun 09, 2020 6:06 am

It is fun when you get the car seeing 312 miles on the GOM. I assumed that was NEDC range.
2019 S Plus (97.98% SOH) & 2019 SV Plus (94.84% SOH) Both Silver
2013 Leaf SV sold 2019 with 11 bars
100 Mile Club Member (Number 87)
Max Miles on 13 Leaf: 120 miles
Max Miles on 19 SV+: 242 Highway miles @ 4.5 miles/kWh

danrjones
Posts: 731
Joined: Wed Apr 17, 2019 8:02 am
Delivery Date: 17 Jun 2019
Location: Ridgecrest, CA

Re: 2019 "60 kWh" Leaf e-Plus

Tue Jun 09, 2020 7:16 am

DaveinOlyWA wrote:
Mon Jun 08, 2020 7:18 pm
danrjones wrote:
Mon Jun 08, 2020 7:16 am
DougWantsALeaf wrote:
Sun Jun 07, 2020 7:57 am
Dave

Glad to see you posting again in your blog. My latest thought on the 90 day steps downs is that Nissan uses the first year to build a buffer on the battery to improve longevity and reduce the degradation. When I first got the car, Leaf spy read over 59kWh, which would only be a 4% buffer at the top. I looking at the other brands (Audi, Mercedes, even GM) it looks like 8-10% is a safer buffer. Supposedly even GM did a software update to hide about 2kWh on the Bolt battery (news Coulomb), but I don’t have anything beyond YouTube reports to back that up.

So Nissan gives you a tighter buffer in quarter 1, allowing for a higher epa range. It then slowly pulls a little away each quarter for a year (let’s hope just a year) to bring the buffer up. Now what we can’t see is in that first year, is how much the battery itself degrades, hence I believe some of the variations on the board. All hypothesis.

Let’s see what the next adjustment brings.
Wouldn't that be illegal? If the EPA rating is XYZ and then the carmaker steals that from you, that seems pretty shady. I know I signed a bunch of papers to the fact the battery would degrade, but I do not remember signing anything that Nissan could artificially degrade my battery. That sounds, if true, like a lawsuit waiting to happen.
WOE!!!! WTF!!! "artificially degrade??" Who said that?? What they are doing (maybe) is hiding part of the battery to protect it. Nothing more than what the Volt did among others.
Call it what ever you want, but (BIG IF) that is true, you are buying a car with a capacity of X and then the manufacturer is taking away part of what you just bought. The EPA may not test it but the manufacturer submit's those numbers and gets in big trouble if they are proven false. If indeed Nissan "protects" an extra 10% that you were sold AFTER you buy it, that is probably illegal. It would be like Ford selling you an F150 that gets an EPA rated 18 mpg, and it did, then they change the computer on purpose to give you more power but lowers your mileage to 14. (Sounds a bit like someone called VW?) Or someone sells you a car with a 15 gallon gas tank in the spec sheet, then on your first service changes it down to 10 without asking.

I totally get the idea and reasoning for doing it, but it doesn't make it legal. And the question is, did those others push their users below the EPA number by doing so? I was under the impression Tesla did not.

Don't fret so much, I'm not planning to sue.
2018 Leaf SV Pearl White with Tech and All Weather, Purchased New on 5/3/19

danrjones
Posts: 731
Joined: Wed Apr 17, 2019 8:02 am
Delivery Date: 17 Jun 2019
Location: Ridgecrest, CA

Re: 2019 "60 kWh" Leaf e-Plus

Tue Jun 09, 2020 7:55 am

I don't want to argue about this until hell freezes over but I guess what upsets me a tad is that (IF TRUE) it means Nissan either:

A) did a poor job on Design and then Testing and found out after the fact they needed to lock away more of the battery, and issued an update to do so

OR

B) did a poor job on design and realized they needed to lock away more of the battery, and programmed the car from the start to do so.


Mine has not had a BMS update that I am ware of, so I am guessing it is "B". If they knew they needed more buffer it should have started that way and the EPA rating should have been 135 miles.

Ask yourself this - if they knew from the start they needed more buffer, why didn't they do it from the start, instead of selling it to you as "150 EPA", then taking it away? That is called dishonesty in my book, which is why I have an issue. I do not have an issue with the idea of trying to keep the battery in good shape.
2018 Leaf SV Pearl White with Tech and All Weather, Purchased New on 5/3/19

DougWantsALeaf
Posts: 2000
Joined: Fri May 10, 2013 8:21 pm
Delivery Date: 18 May 2013
Leaf Number: 407811
Location: Chicago North Side

Re: 2019 "60 kWh" Leaf e-Plus

Tue Jun 09, 2020 8:41 am

Audi, Porsche, and Jaguar went the high road and removed 10% of the battery from use from the get go. Maybe this helps explain the eTron popularity in Europe.

Tesla, GM, Nissan chose the road of playing more games.
2019 S Plus (97.98% SOH) & 2019 SV Plus (94.84% SOH) Both Silver
2013 Leaf SV sold 2019 with 11 bars
100 Mile Club Member (Number 87)
Max Miles on 13 Leaf: 120 miles
Max Miles on 19 SV+: 242 Highway miles @ 4.5 miles/kWh

DougWantsALeaf
Posts: 2000
Joined: Fri May 10, 2013 8:21 pm
Delivery Date: 18 May 2013
Leaf Number: 407811
Location: Chicago North Side

Re: 2019 "60 kWh" Leaf e-Plus

Tue Jun 09, 2020 11:58 am

Ran my leaf to the service dept today thinking that I was due for my first battery health check.

The service dept. told me that the annual battery check is no longer required. 15K miles is the first check in now. Does this align with what others are hearing?

Thank you.
2019 S Plus (97.98% SOH) & 2019 SV Plus (94.84% SOH) Both Silver
2013 Leaf SV sold 2019 with 11 bars
100 Mile Club Member (Number 87)
Max Miles on 13 Leaf: 120 miles
Max Miles on 19 SV+: 242 Highway miles @ 4.5 miles/kWh

danrjones
Posts: 731
Joined: Wed Apr 17, 2019 8:02 am
Delivery Date: 17 Jun 2019
Location: Ridgecrest, CA

Re: 2019 "60 kWh" Leaf e-Plus

Tue Jun 09, 2020 12:09 pm

DougWantsALeaf wrote:
Tue Jun 09, 2020 11:58 am
Ran my leaf to the service dept today thinking that I was due for my first battery health check.

The service dept. told me that the annual battery check is no longer required. 15K miles is the first check in now. Does this align with what others are hearing?

Thank you.
Actually no, I just got different guidance. I just scheduled my 1 year appointment and battery check for a week from this Friday.
Should be a tire rotation, battery check, and a warranty issue with the bumper / support bracket.

They told me once a year, so they said I was due. But then they also tried about five times to schedule me for an oil change.... so take it with a grain of salt. I'm not convinced they know what they are doing. Mine is also the 2018 40 pack, so that could also be a difference.
2018 Leaf SV Pearl White with Tech and All Weather, Purchased New on 5/3/19

DaveinOlyWA
Posts: 14977
Joined: Sat Apr 24, 2010 7:43 pm
Delivery Date: 16 Nov 2019
Leaf Number: 319862
Location: Olympia, WA
Contact: Website

Re: 2019 "60 kWh" Leaf e-Plus

Tue Jun 09, 2020 7:00 pm

danrjones wrote:
Tue Jun 09, 2020 7:55 am
I don't want to argue about this until hell freezes over but I guess what upsets me a tad is that (IF TRUE) it means Nissan either:

A) did a poor job on Design and then Testing and found out after the fact they needed to lock away more of the battery, and issued an update to do so

OR

B) did a poor job on design and realized they needed to lock away more of the battery, and programmed the car from the start to do so.


Mine has not had a BMS update that I am ware of, so I am guessing it is "B". If they knew they needed more buffer it should have started that way and the EPA rating should have been 135 miles.

Ask yourself this - if they knew from the start they needed more buffer, why didn't they do it from the start, instead of selling it to you as "150 EPA", then taking it away? That is called dishonesty in my book, which is why I have an issue. I do not have an issue with the idea of trying to keep the battery in good shape.
You forgot about "C"

See C below

Ok, nix all that. Forgot this is not a Threaded site.

There is also the possibility that the algorithm changes based on your driving/charging habits with long life in mind.

Neither A or B explains why the numbers go up sometimes. Bad math would do it but all indicators point to most of the math being cleaned up starting with the 40 kwh pack. I am guessing the 30 kwh programming debacle likely lit a fire under the programming team so...

Either way, I think that LEAF Spy has given us both sides of the coin.

The good; a MUCH clearer understanding of what our true range is. I tell people if you want 20 more miles of range, get LEAF Spy. Cheapest range boost ever. We have someone who did a range test and stopped when SOC meter hit 1% or 2% or whatever it was stating he wasn't willing to risk getting stranded. My stomach hurt for 3 days due to the laugh I had over that comment.

The Bad; We see every micro change. No other car provides this information with this kind of depth. Granted, if you are losing bars, that is obvious but no one has lost a bar. Has any 40's lost a bar yet? I know one guy who has to over 50,000 miles by now. Has he lost anything yet?

I "may" know more by the end of the week... and I may not.
2011 SL; 44,598 mi, 87% SOH. 2013 S; 44,840 mi, 91% SOH. 2016 S30; 29,413 mi, 99% SOH. 2018 S; 25,185 mi, SOH 92.23%. 2019 S Plus; 11,333.1 mi, 93.73% SOH
My Blog; http://daveinolywa.blogspot.com" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

DougWantsALeaf
Posts: 2000
Joined: Fri May 10, 2013 8:21 pm
Delivery Date: 18 May 2013
Leaf Number: 407811
Location: Chicago North Side

Re: 2019 "60 kWh" Leaf e-Plus

Wed Jun 10, 2020 7:09 pm

Another very positive local range test.

https://youtu.be/r-6VgTTsl-o

Tom M. From inside EVs ran the LR M3 on an ideal temp range test. 289 miles, which was pretty good. It is impressive that Tesla can keep 4.2-4.3 at 70mph. The Leaf is great/as efficient at low speeds, but isn’t nearly as efficiency above 45-50 mph. Aero is a piece of it, but am guessing the overall Powertrain also isn’t as efficient at the higher draws.

While I believe the Leaf to be a very good value and am a big fan of the form, it would be good if they could up their game a bit.
2019 S Plus (97.98% SOH) & 2019 SV Plus (94.84% SOH) Both Silver
2013 Leaf SV sold 2019 with 11 bars
100 Mile Club Member (Number 87)
Max Miles on 13 Leaf: 120 miles
Max Miles on 19 SV+: 242 Highway miles @ 4.5 miles/kWh

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